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InvisiblePoid
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Consent
    #11272014 - 10/18/09 05:39 PM (8 years, 6 days ago)

Can everybody give consent? :naughty:

If not, who can't, why can't they, and who facilitates the action of giving consent for one who cannot give their own, and why is it this person's duty? :strokebeard:





REMINDER: CONSENT DOES NOT ONLY APPLY TO SEXUAL ACTS!!! :mad2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBand of Gypsys
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Re: Consent [Re: Poid]
    #11272235 - 10/18/09 06:20 PM (8 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Can everybody give consent? :naughty:

If not, who can't, why can't they, and who facilitates the action of giving consent for one who cannot give their own, and why is it this person's duty? :strokebeard:





REMINDER: CONSENT DOES NOT ONLY APPLY TO SEXUAL ACTS!!! :mad2:




Sex with a coma patient is wrong.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Consent [Re: Band of Gypsys]
    #11276160 - 10/19/09 11:09 AM (8 years, 5 days ago)

Why?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Consent [Re: Poid]
    #11276191 - 10/19/09 11:24 AM (8 years, 5 days ago)

In principle everyone has the right to give consent.
This can be expressively or implied. Thus, written or as presumed within a broader context of agreement.
However, a person is not to give consent if he/she cannot fully understand the consequences and implications of doing so. On the contrary, such an individual is not allowed to give consent.
In this latter case, it is a person whom can take the full responsibility that can make an agreement to consent for the one who is found unable to do so for her-/himself.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Consent [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11276287 - 10/19/09 11:51 AM (8 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
In principle everyone has the right to give consent.


What does this mean, "in principle"? In whose principal(s?)? According to these principals, does a 13 year old female have the right to give consent to a 40 year old man to have sex with her?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
This can be expressively or implied.


How do you mean?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Thus, written or as presumed within a broader context of agreement.


So you're saying that, so long as an individual gives another individual consent to do whatever, they have the right no matter what? :strokebeard:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
However, a person is not to give consent...


In situations like these (regardless of why an individual cannot give their own consent), who facilitates the action of giving consent for one who cannot give their own, and why is it this person's duty?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
...if he/she cannot fully understand the consequences and implications of doing so.


Whose duty is it to determine if an individual is un/able to fully understand the consequences and implications of doing so? Why is it this person's duty? :strokebeard:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
On the contrary, such an individual is not allowed to give consent.


Can you elaborate? Whose duty is it to determine who can give consent, and who can't, and why is it this person's duty?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
In this latter case, it is a person whom can take the full responsibility that can make an agreement to consent for the one who is found unable to do so for her-/himself.


You have yet to explain why you believe that people need to be evaluated by and follow some sort of set of preconceived standards in order to be "given" the right to give their own consent. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Consent [Re: Poid]
    #11276395 - 10/19/09 12:23 PM (8 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

explain why you believe that people need to be evaluated by and follow some sort of set of preconceived standards in order to be "given" the right to give their own consent




Without an assessment of the individual under scrutiny, of being adequately responsible to decide whether or not giving consent is the correct action in the given circumstances, their decisions of consent are to be regarded as possibly harmful to both themselves and others.

Quote:

Whose duty is it to determine who can give consent, and who can't, and why is it this person's duty




Depending upon the case there arise several ways  or means by which a person can receive permission to decide for themselves whether or not to give consent in certain matters.
All general affairs that can't or don't lead to harm, be it to self or others, can be regarded as free to be decided about, and or given consent about.
All other matters should be viewed in the light of evaluation and assessment made by adequately professional persons in their respective fields of interest.

Quote:

Whose duty is it to determine if an individual is un-/able to fully understand the consequences and implications of doing so? Why is it this person's duty?




As long as an individual cannot be regarded as adult and of mature reasonableness, then someone else should parent over them. Why? Because of loving care for the well being of that individual.

Quote:

who facilitates the action of giving consent for one who cannot give their own, and why is it this person's duty?




The proxy of consent is either close related family, specialists on the matter concerning which the giving of consent is about, law and jurisdiction. Not necessarily in that order.
Why? For the well being of the individual, the society and humanity.

Quote:

So you're saying that, so long as an individual gives another individual consent to do whatever, they have the right no matter what?




The right will be legally acceptable if the decision rests by an authorised individual.

Quote:

This can be expressively or implied.




Expressively by means of word or writing. Implied when the agreement on a certain matter automatically includes consent on the other. Eg: Being married means sex allowed, thus rape not possible.

Quote:

In principle




As outlined in the ideas mentioned above... :whatdoyouthink:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Consent [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11276487 - 10/19/09 12:45 PM (8 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

explain why you believe that people need to be evaluated by and follow some sort of set of preconceived standards in order to be "given" the right to give their own consent




Without an assessment of the individual under scrutiny, of being adequately responsible to decide whether or not giving consent is the correct action in the given circumstances, their decisions of consent are to be regarded as possibly harmful to both themselves and others.


Whose job is it to "assess" and "scrutinize" others, and why is it this person's job? To what extent does the potential harm a decision to give consent can cause anybody involved have to do with this person's job?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

Whose duty is it to determine who can give consent, and who can't, and why is it this person's duty




Depending upon the case there arise several ways  or means by which a person can receive permission to decide for themselves whether or not to give consent in certain matters.


Why/how does it depend upon the specific case?




Quote:

Ahimsa said:
All general affairs that can't or don't lead to harm, be it to self or others, can be regarded as free to be decided about, and or given consent about.


What is included under the term 'general affairs'? Who decides what 'harm' means, to what extend does this person's decision need to have, and why is it this person's prerogative to decide all of this?

Basically, you're saying that decisions to give consent which can potentially lead to harm need not be in the hands of individuals. :nonono:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
All other matters should be viewed in the light of evaluation and assessment made by adequately professional persons in their respective fields of interest.


What do you mean by "all other matters"? Which adequately professional person in what field of interest do you believe should shoulder the responsibility of deciding who can give consent?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

Whose duty is it to determine if an individual is un-/able to fully understand the consequences and implications of doing so? Why is it this person's duty?




As long as an individual cannot be regarded as adult and of mature reasonableness, then someone else should parent over them. Why? Because of loving care for the well being of that individual.


So if the majority of people believe that you do not have right to give consent, this means that your right needs to be taken away? :confused:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

who facilitates the action of giving consent for one who cannot give their own, and why is it this person's duty?




The proxy of consent is either close related family, specialists on the matter concerning which the giving of consent is about, law and jurisdiction. Not necessarily in that order.
Why? For the well being of the individual, the society and humanity.


In terms of "well being of the individual, the society and humanity", can you present cases where a person's right to give consent is justifiably "terminated" (for lack of a better term)?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

So you're saying that, so long as an individual gives another individual consent to do whatever, they have the right no matter what?




The right will be legally acceptable if the decision rests by an authorised individual.


So only authorized individuals can decide who is allowed to give consent?



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

This can be expressively or implied.




Expressively by means of word or writing. Implied when the agreement on a certain matter automatically includes consent on the other. Eg: Being married means sex allowed, thus rape not possible.


Ok. :thumbup:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

In principle




As outlined in the ideas mentioned above... :whatdoyouthink:


I don't think I completely agree with you. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Consent [Re: Poid]
    #11276685 - 10/19/09 01:33 PM (8 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Whose job is it to "assess" and "scrutinize" others, and why is it this person's job? To what extent does the potential harm, a decision to give consent can cause anybody involved, have to do with this person's job?




It is everyone's job! All the way through life we should al the very least, as a member of public, express our concern about others decisions to consent. I regard it a civil duty to try to pass on knowledge of experience in this way. At the most, as an official member of state or otherwise, there should be an active participation in all affairs whereby individuals can or will, be it intentionally or not, cause harm upon themselves and/or others, be preventing from doing so by not having them made statements of consent, or by facilitating help and education to prevent the resulting harm from happening again.

Quote:

Why/how does it depend upon the specific case?




Weigh the outcome or possible outcome of the given consent in terms of beneficence or destructiveness. Based upon that decide in how far and by what means the consent to be given is allowed, provided for or prevented.

Quote:

What is included under the term 'general affairs'? Who decides what 'harm' means, to what extend does this person's decision need to have, and why is it this person's prerogative to decide all of this?

Basically, you're saying that decisions to give consent which can potentially lead to harm need not be in the hands of individuals.




By general affairs i mean all issues of normal, standard, tried and tested daily life. Harmful is that what in the short and /or long run leads to the decay and destruction of the individual or society as a whole. The graver the matter the more opinions and experience has to be bundled to arrive to a proper conclusion. Therefore, deciding upon the right to give consent is a collective affair. Part of it is worked out officially the other is mainstream common sense.

Quote:

What do you mean by "all other matters"? Which adequately professional person in what field of interest do you believe should shoulder the responsibility of deciding who can give consent?




All other matters are those cases that can not be expected to be taken care of by the mainstream populace. These include cases of a more serious nature that are potentially very or extremely harmful to a large group of individuals. These decision-makers should find counsel by professional caretakers of well being and maintainers of law and order. Not an individual or group but a seamless 'taking up' of experience and 'handing down' of decisions is the proper process of deciding upon acceptance of freedom of giving consent.

Quote:

So if the majority of people believe that you do not have right to give consent, this means that your right needs to be taken away?




The majority is not a valid criteria for being regarded as adult and mature reasonable.

Quote:

In terms of "well being of the individual, the society and humanity", can you present cases where a person's right to give consent is justifiably "terminated" (for lack of a better term)?




Cases of certain individuals in function of government are numerous. These include dictators.
Professional titleholders have had their rights taken away because of misconduct. Like Doctors.
Plenty of individuals have lost or had postponed their basic freedom by imprisonment, so that they didn't have much to give consent about any more.

Quote:

So only authorized individuals can decide who is allowed to give consent?




No. Everyone has the right to give consent, but only to a certain extent. And that is decided upon within the social framework. The authorization can formal or informal dependent upon the matter.

:ohwell: Anything else you can agree with?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Consent [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11277620 - 10/19/09 03:59 PM (8 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

Whose job is it to "assess" and "scrutinize" others, and why is it this person's job? To what extent does the potential harm, a decision to give consent can cause anybody involved, have to do with this person's job?




It is everyone's job!


I don't think it's anybody's job to tell me what to do. :nono:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
All the way through life we should al the very least, as a member of public, express our concern about others decisions to consent.


I don't think any individual "should" have to do anything that they don't choose to do. :shrug:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
I regard it a civil duty to try to pass on knowledge of experience in this way.


I totally disagree with this type of mentality. :shrug:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
At the most, as an official member of state or otherwise, there should be an active participation in all affairs whereby individuals can or will, be it intentionally or not, cause harm upon themselves and/or others, be preventing from doing so by not having them made statements of consent, or by facilitating help and education to prevent the resulting harm from happening again.


What if the individual disagrees with the state's decision? What if the individual actually has a logically sound reason to disagree with the state's decision to control his/her consent? :strokebeard:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

Why/how does it depend upon the specific case?




Weigh the outcome or possible outcome of the given consent in terms of beneficence or destructiveness. Based upon that decide in how far and by what means the consent to be given is allowed, provided for or prevented.


Whose job is it to do this? Can we even trust putting any individual in such a position? :strokebeard2:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

What is included under the term 'general affairs'? Who decides what 'harm' means, to what extend does this person's decision need to have, and why is it this person's prerogative to decide all of this?

Basically, you're saying that decisions to give consent which can potentially lead to harm need not be in the hands of individuals.




By general affairs i mean all issues of normal, standard, tried and tested daily life.


I would contend that there is no such thing. :shrug2:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Harmful is that what in the short and /or long run leads to the decay and destruction of the individual or society as a whole. The graver the matter the more opinions and experience has to be bundled to arrive to a proper conclusion. Therefore, deciding upon the right to give consent is a collective affair. Part of it is worked out officially the other is mainstream common sense.


Again, what if the individual disagrees with the state's decision? What if the individual actually has a logically sound reason to disagree with the state's decision to control his/her consent? :strokebeard2:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

What do you mean by "all other matters"? Which adequately professional person in what field of interest do you believe should shoulder the responsibility of deciding who can give consent?




Quote:

Ahimsa said:
All other matters are those cases that can not be expected to be taken care of by the mainstream populace. These include cases of a more serious nature that are potentially very or extremely harmful to a large group of individuals. These decision-makers should find counsel by professional caretakers of well being and maintainers of law and order. Not an individual or group but a seamless 'taking up' of experience and 'handing down' of decisions is the proper process of deciding upon acceptance of freedom of giving consent.


What if the individual disagrees with the state's decision? What if the individual actually has a logically sound reason to disagree with the state's decision to control his/her consent? :strokebeard2:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

So if the majority of people believe that you do not have right to give consent, this means that your right needs to be taken away?




The majority is not a valid criteria for being regarded as adult and mature reasonable.


But the majority's opinion, as a whole, is valid criteria for basing legislation on? :confused:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

In terms of "well being of the individual, the society and humanity", can you present cases where a person's right to give consent is justifiably "terminated" (for lack of a better term)?




Cases of certain individuals in function of government are numerous. These include dictators.
Professional titleholders have had their rights taken away because of misconduct. Like Doctors.
Plenty of individuals have lost or had postponed their basic freedom by imprisonment, so that they didn't have much to give consent about any more.


Yup. So what? :shrug:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

So only authorized individuals can decide who is allowed to give consent?




No. Everyone has the right to give consent, but only to a certain extent. And that is decided upon within the social framework. The authorization can formal or informal dependent upon the matter.

:ohwell: Anything else you can agree with?


I don't agree with you on much of the issues raised thus far. I don't agree that a person's right to give consent should be dependent on the people, I believe it needs to be dependent on the person.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Consent [Re: Poid]
    #11282643 - 10/20/09 10:27 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

I don't think it's anybody's job to tell me what to do.




Maybe you don't need anyone to tell you what not to do. But that can't be said for everyone.

Quote:

I don't think any individual "should" have to do anything that they don't choose to do.




Ofcourse not! Expressing concern is not ordering someone. It is just expressing another point of view, it points out danger and hopefully makes people think before they do!

Quote:

I totally disagree with this type of mentality.




What's wrong with guiding the younger generation with the wisdom of the older? :undecided:

Quote:

What if the individual disagrees with the state's decision? What if the individual actually has a logically sound reason to disagree with the state's decision to control his/her consent?




You know, that's how laws change. Law ought to be a solid but flexible whole imo.

Quote:

Whose job is it to do this? Can we even trust putting any individual in such a position?




I wouldn't put an individual to do this, but a self-regulating and self-controling unit.

Quote:

I would contend that there is no such thing.




Well, possibly because it is too obvious.  :undecided:

Quote:

I don't agree with you on much of the issues raised thus far. I don't agree that a person's right to give consent should be dependent on the people, I believe it needs to be dependent on the person.




This is confusing. Do you mean determined by that person or determined upon that persons character? :ohwell:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Consent [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11282940 - 10/20/09 11:48 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

I don't think it's anybody's job to tell me what to do.




Maybe you don't need anyone to tell you what not to do. But that can't be said for everyone.


Sweet, so I'm special and I get to do whatever the fuck I want, even if my actions impose on others' peaceful pursuit of freedom/happiness. :smirk:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

I don't think any individual "should" have to do anything that they don't choose to do.




Ofcourse not! Expressing concern is not ordering someone. It is just expressing another point of view, it points out danger and hopefully makes people think before they do!


So you retract your statement? :confused:

:lol:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

I totally disagree with this type of mentality.




What's wrong with guiding the younger generation with the wisdom of the older? :undecided:


It's not the guidance that's wrong, it's the enforcing that's wrong, IMO.



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

What if the individual disagrees with the state's decision? What if the individual actually has a logically sound reason to disagree with the state's decision to control his/her consent?




You know, that's how laws change. Law ought to be a solid but flexible whole imo.


So you believe that the power to give consent is only something that the government can allow us to have? Fuck that. :thumbdown:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

Whose job is it to do this? Can we even trust putting any individual in such a position?




I wouldn't put an individual to do this, but a self-regulating and self-controling unit.


What if this unit has an off-putting agenda in its sleeves? :strokebeard:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

I would contend that there is no such thing.




Well, possibly because it is too obvious.  :undecided:


:what:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

I don't agree with you on much of the issues raised thus far. I don't agree that a person's right to give consent should be dependent on the people, I believe it needs to be dependent on the person.




This is confusing. Do you mean determined by that person or determined upon that persons character? :ohwell:


I think the concept of consent is something personal, and should not be in anybody's hands except for the individual giving consent; I do not believe that any third party needs to be involved, especially if this third party is a powerful entity like the government, in an individual's decision to give consent.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Consent [Re: Poid]
    #11283035 - 10/20/09 12:03 PM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

So you believe that the power to give consent is only something that the government can allow us to have? Fuck that.




Quote:

I do not believe that any third party needs to be involved, especially if this third party is a powerful entity like the government, in an individual's decision to give consent.




Isn't this asking for trouble? If people can't be educated to be responsible enough to make solid and safe decisions regarding their conceding, then where will this anarchy lead eventually? People will just concede with everything they like. Regardless if it will harm them or others, because people will choose themselves before others anyway. Without some rolemodel, without guidance people are not able to govern themselves. Maybe you are, but not everyone. :waits:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Consent [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11313126 - 10/24/09 06:01 PM (8 years, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
Quote:

So you believe that the power to give consent is only something that the government can allow us to have? Fuck that.




Quote:

I do not believe that any third party needs to be involved, especially if this third party is a powerful entity like the government, in an individual's decision to give consent.




Isn't this asking for trouble?


Not necessarily, no. :shake:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
If people can't be educated to be responsible enough to make solid and safe decisions regarding their conceding, then where will this anarchy lead eventually?


Do you believe that people need to be taught how to give co sent? :curbyourenthusiasm:



Quote:

Ahimsa said:
People will just concede with everything they like. Regardless if it will harm them or others, because people will choose themselves before others anyway. Without some rolemodel, without guidance people are not able to govern themselves. Maybe you are, but not everyone. :waits:


You have provided absolutely no evidence to back up any of your assertions here. :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (01/23/11 06:38 PM)


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