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Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata
    #11148131 -

I was wondering if anybody knows if the levels of psilocybin and psilocin are different in young libs than in older specimens; or does the percentage of active compounds stay relatively constant up to maturity. I would also like to know if the levels of these active compounds increase when the mushroom grow under certain environmental stress i.e not enough light/water or growing through long grass. thanks


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To take a stand not only for freedom of thought and speech, but also for the liberty of tastes and pursuits.....of doing as we like; subject to such consequenses as may follow. To do so without impediment from our fellow peers, so long as we do not harm them, even though they should think our conduct foolish, peverse or wrong.

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: egryn]
    #11148222 -

Younger mushrooms are more potent per weight.

An eighth of babies will get you higher than an eighth of mature specimens.


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:macrofunction:

Mushroom Hunting and Identification Rules
Puget Sound Mycological Society
MushroomExpert.com
Sample ID Request - Necessary for proper ID's
An Overview on how to find Psilocybe mushrooms by Shockvalue
P. cinctulus (subbalteatus) vs. P. foenesecii
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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: Twiztidsage]
    #11148260 -

In general, and especially in ps. cubensis, this appears to be true. If thorough analyses have been conducted on liberty caps, however, I severely doubt.

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: koraks]
    #11148382 -

I think it's actually true for all active species. Active compound per weight is higher in smaller specimen, thus 1/8 oz of pins > 1/8 oz mature fruit. At least for P. cubensis I can definitely say that it is true. I've eaten 3 grams of dried pins and 3 grams of matured fruit from one and the same grow of PE on different occasions and the mature fruits were strong but the pins knocked me right out of my socks. I was in a fetal position unable to talk or think a straight thought for about four hours. :lol:


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: German Kahuna]
    #11148473 -

yeah, i'v always thought about this. 

I figure that since Psilocybin and Psilocin are water soluble, some will most definitely seep out of the fruits whenever they get overly wet....


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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: panaeolus]
    #11148583 -

That's not the main concern. The thing is that mushroom fruits aren't growing by cell division, but by expansion of the already present cells. They put on weight by taking in more water (and nutrients), but apparently, the synthesis of the active compounds isn't connected to the gain in weight in a linear way, so while they grow significantly bigger and heavier, they do not gain the same amount of active compound proportionally.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: German Kahuna]
    #11148927 -

I didn't know that.  Back in the day I ate 70 grams of fresh pins.  This was before the Internet or any books on the subject had been written.  PMOTW discusses potency between pins and mature specimens.

I'll say this: never again.

Set and setting were good, at first.  In a forest with a trusted friend as co-pilot.  No flashlight when we put out the campfire and left.  The forest became the deep woods of Bolivia.  Great clouds of green fog were rising out of vernal pools.  Dense vines blocked our passage.  Later, back at his place in the city, I got the idea that all the literature on psilocybin intoxication were wrong.  I had ODed and was going to die.  I kept begging my friend over and over again, "Please don't call the hospital or the police," repeating it like a mantra.  Neither he nor I enjoyed that part so much.  Still, I enjoyed the experience overall.  I just don't need to do that again, evar.


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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11148984 -

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The only time I actually felt like I had taken too much and OD'd on shrooms was on fresh wet PE pins. It was brutal. By now if I take pins I take no more than 1/2 to 2/3 max of the regular weight I'd take with mature specimen.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11149170 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
I didn't know that.  Back in the day I ate 70 grams of fresh pins. 


Ehhhh....yeah, that should do the trick :crazy2:

Heroic doses, nothing for me, really.

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: koraks]
    #11150598 -

I know first hand that 1 gram of dried baby cyans rocks me harder than 2 grams of mature ones.

Like Mr. Kahuna said, It seems to be that way for all (or at least the majority) of active species.


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:macrofunction:

Mushroom Hunting and Identification Rules
Puget Sound Mycological Society
MushroomExpert.com
Sample ID Request - Necessary for proper ID's
An Overview on how to find Psilocybe mushrooms by Shockvalue
P. cinctulus (subbalteatus) vs. P. foenesecii
How do I put pictures in my posts?

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: German Kahuna]
    #11150971 -

German Kahuna said:
That's not the main concern. The thing is that mushroom fruits aren't growing by cell division, but by expansion of the already present cells. They put on weight by taking in more water (and nutrients), but apparently, the synthesis of the active compounds isn't connected to the gain in weight in a linear way, so while they grow significantly bigger and heavier, they do not gain the same amount of active compound proportionally.



Thats a really good explanation. I totally understood that :eek:

Good job :cool::thumbup:

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: koraks]
    #11151472 -

:rofl:

At least I didn't do THAT again.  :lol:


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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #11155103 -

It has been confirmed. The study was made in Norway ([A.L.Christiansen, K.E.Rasmussen og K.Høiland: "Planta Medica" 42(1981) s. 229-235) but I got the charts from a dane (Sten larris, http://home8.inet.tele.dk/larri/HALU/GAUSS.HTM )

Then I made a chart of it a couple of years ago:



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:shroompick: My psychedelic art :pinkshroom: My photos of psychoactive mushrooms :pinkshroom:

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: knarkkorven]
    #11155182 -

thnks for the input and info everyone!:smile:


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To take a stand not only for freedom of thought and speech, but also for the liberty of tastes and pursuits.....of doing as we like; subject to such consequenses as may follow. To do so without impediment from our fellow peers, so long as we do not harm them, even though they should think our conduct foolish, peverse or wrong.

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: egryn]
    #11155198 -

As a final note on this subject, even if tempted to try and pick as many mushrooms as possible in the pin stage of their development it is not wise to do so. Always give them the chance to complete their life cycle by dropping their spore load. It's in both the mushroom's and our own best interest in the long run.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: German Kahuna]
    #11155249 -

definitely, anyways the size difference between pins and mature specimens might balance it out somewhat, regarding the amount of psilocybin found per mushroom. preserve for the future!


--------------------
To take a stand not only for freedom of thought and speech, but also for the liberty of tastes and pursuits.....of doing as we like; subject to such consequenses as may follow. To do so without impediment from our fellow peers, so long as we do not harm them, even though they should think our conduct foolish, peverse or wrong.

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: egryn]
    #11155278 -

egryn said:
definitely, anyways the size difference between pins and mature specimens might balance it out somewhat, regarding the amount of psilocybin found per mushroom. preserve for the future!


As you can see in the quoted source, the analysis was based on weight. Volume (i.e., physical size) is not an issue, therefore. If you take a look at the graph that knarkkorven has made, it's easy to see that the lighter specimens tend to have a higher alkaloid content, even expressed in absolute numbers.

I must note, however, that there appear to be some outliers in the graph which I hope have been left out of analysis in the actual journal article. For example, take the data point in the top left corner; this is apparently a ca. 7mg shroom with a 2mg psilocybin content. That would about 28%, which seems somewhat unlikely to me if the rest is in the range of 0.17% - 1.96%, as mentioned in the journal article's abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17401967).

In fact, on closer inspection, I'd say that there is one essential flaw in knarkkorven's graph. The vertical axis is labeled 'Psilocybin content (mg)', while the data on the cited website clearly indicate % instead of mg. Taking this into account, the picture of relative alkaloid content decreasing as dried mushroom weight increases gets a lot clearer.

However, this would seem to conflict with GK's argument that the decrease in potency is due to aging, which would be essentially the existing cells of the mushroom sucking themselves full with water and perhaps air, but not accumulating any dry matter during aging. If this explanation is indeed true, then the dried weight of both young and old mushrooms would be the same. After all, in the aging process, only the volume of the specimen would increase due to the absorption of water (will be absent in dehydrated specimens) and maybe some locked-in air in the tissue (virtually weightless).

Hence, an analysis based on dried weight, such as provided in the Planta medica article, would offer no basis for conclusions regarding potency in relation to specimen age. Therefore, the only tentative conclusion I'm willing to make based on this source is that the lighter the specimen, the higher the relative alkaloid content.

We can actually take this one step further and have a look at the slope of the trend in knarkkorven's graph (which we will view in its corrected form w.r.t. the vertical axis; see above). You could imagine a trend line that would cross through the 20mg/1.2% and 60mg/0.4% points. Interestingly, that line would correspond with an absolute psilocybin content of 0.24mg. Hence: on average, the specimens in this sample contain 0.24mg, which is true for both the smaller and the larger specimens, but due to the difference in specimen weight, the relative potency varies.

Note that the numbers in this sample are small, the specimens were all collected from one geographical are (Norway) and that no data is provided for specimen age. Hence, any conclusions drawn on the basis of this article should be viewed with some caution. Furthermore, variation could be present between collections from different locations. Finally, this source allows no conclusions regarding the relationship between specimen age and relative potency.

In conclusion: we just don't know for sure. Personally, I think that it is reasonable to assume that liberty caps in the same field, growing at the same time, will all contain roughly the same absolute amount of active alkaloids. Hence: calculate dosage by number of mushrooms, not so much total weight. A helping of large specimens will contain less active alkaloids than an equally weighted helping of smaller specimens. How this relates to pins, I cannot conclude based on the source discussed above, but I am inclined to believe that pins will be more potent in a relative sense than older specimens.

Edited by koraks (09/30/09 04:18 AM)

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: koraks]
    #11155309 -

Yes, I f*cked up the %-label. Good that you noticed it.

The samples were taken from 16 different sites in Norway.

Liberty caps average potency vary very little from different countries, check this out (from Psilocybin haltige Pilzarten im europäischen Raum Vorkommen, Morphologie und Inhaltsstoffe by Jochen Gartz and Markus Berger)

1. Dübener Heide, Germany 0,96%
2. Prague, Czech Republic 1,05%
3. Krasna Lipa, Czech Republic 0,91%
4. Norway 0,95%
5. PNW, USA 0,93%
6. Holland 0,97%

Average 0,96%


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:shroompick: My psychedelic art :pinkshroom: My photos of psychoactive mushrooms :pinkshroom:

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: knarkkorven]
    #11155357 -

That is very consistent indeed. In that case, I would have little hesitation in extrapolating these data to other countries and simply state that a single ps. semilanceata specimen will on average contain 0.24mg of psilocybin, regardless of its size or weight. A typical 10-20mg dosage (source: Tihkal) would translate into 40-80 mushrooms, which is consistent with the advice usually given on these boards.

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Re: Amount of Psilocybin in differently aged P. semilanceata [Re: knarkkorven]
    #11155420 -

It's been said that the percentage of active alkaloids should be based on either the specimens overall weight, or the specimens overall age.

Basically I think weight AND age come into play when trying to determine a specimens potency.

I know for a fact from visiting fields frequently, that after the fruits are exposed to rainfall they get waterlogged, in turn making them weigh much more.

So, would this not mean that the more the specimen has been exposed to the elements, the lower the percent of active alkaloids.?

Think about how simple it is to make tea from fresh fruits.  All you have to do is soak them in some water.


(btw I'm not saying the pins are not more potent than mature fruits, but what I am saying is that the alkaloids can seep out of the fruits after being exposed to rainfall...)


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