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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061674 -

Quote:
Uh...yeah.  That's called representative democracy.  I wouldn't trust someone like you to write my shopping list, let alone a bill.  That's why we have representatives with legal and economic advisors to help them write a bill.


This is a commonly mistaken belief. Representatives hardly ever write bills, they debate them and sign or table them, but lobbyists and interest groups and their lawyers write the bill. Frequently, the representitive never even reads a bill they vote on (many times their advisors don't read it either.) It's a sham :crankey:


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061754 -

Silversoul said:
Prisoner#1 said:
well please explain why we need this new healthcare plan as opposed to
fixing what's there


What do you mean "fixing what's there"?  THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS PLAN DOES!


no, it actually doesnt, wheres the repeal of the asset seizures, post
mortem, why does it demand pre existing condition coverage, seems to me
it just fucks up more and drives more businesses down the tubes

feel free to show me how it fixes the problems, how it keeps the charity hospitals open

Quote:
Quote:
hasnt government fucked it up


Government has fucked up when it's delegated its responsibilities to the private sector, such as with Medicare Advantage.




or when they established medicare

Quote:
Quote:
the people arent writing these bills, the elected officials are


Uh...yeah.  That's called representative democracy.  I wouldn't trust someone like you to write my shopping list, let alone a bill.  That's why we have representatives with legal and economic advisors to help them write a bill.



well I can understand the shopping list, who knows how long you'd
survive on a diet of beer and cheetos, the problem is that the
representatives dont represent the people anymore


Quote:
Quote:
what's government done with this economy that makes it so wonderful right now


They stopped the bleeding with the stimulus package.  The cash for clunkers program was a huge success.  And given the superb track record of universal healthcare in other countries, we can expect that such a program here would help our economy as well.



bullshit... they ran out of cash wht cash for clunkers... and the US isnt other countries

Quote:
The military is a necessary function of government that has unfortunately been coopted by private special interests to further their agendas overseas.


like many other aspects of government, it's all about special interests, jut ask the enlightened one

Quote:
Welfare programs like social security have been a great blessing for the average American, to the extent that it's become a "third rail" of politics.


yep... granny can go grocery shopping and buy some cat food, too bad she doesnt like cats


Quote:
Immigration is a small problem that conservative blowhards make out to be a huge problem because they need a scapegoat.


it's funny how we have as many illegal aliens as we;ve lost jobs in the US over the last few years... I wonder if that's a coincidence

 
Quote:
Drug law reform is happening slowly but surely around the world and in several states.  I predict that by 2020, pot will be legal in most US states, if not nationally.



so now you're a psychic... how about we get the people involved and get it on the ballot instead of allowing your predictions and opinions dictate what will and will not happen

Quote:
Quote:
seems to me politics is actually some ideological bullshit


And yet the opinions you spout here are explicitly political.  Is this your way of admitting that you're spouting ideological bullshit?


is it any different than any of the other ideological bullshit and
metaphysical juju that you're spewing?


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061812 -

Prisoner#1 said:
no, it actually doesnt, wheres the repeal of the asset seizures post mortem


I'm quite sure I don't know what you're talking about, but such a bill needn't solve every problem to make enormous progress

Quote:
why does it demand pre existing condition coverage


Because that's the sensible and moral thing to do.

Quote:
feel free to show me how it fixes the problems


A strong public option would provide competition to keep costs down.  Requiring coverage for pre-existing conditions would make healthcare accessible to many people who can't currently get coverage.  It would also prevent insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick.  This is not only a moral imperative, but also makes the system more efficient, and would reduce administrative costs.

Quote:
how it keeps the charity hospitals open


What reason do you have for believing it wouldn't, other than your less than casual relationship with the facts?

Quote:
or when they established medicare


That's not the way the vast majority of seniors see it.

Quote:
bullshit... they ran out of cash wht cash for clunkers... and the US isnt other countries


Cash for clunkers was intended to be a short-term stimulus program.  It succeeded in its objective beyond even the most optimistic projections.  And there's no reason that universal healthcare couldn't work in the US any less than it does in other developed countries, other than insurance companies trying to block legislation, and the stupid rednecks who defend them.

Quote:
like many other aspects of government, it's all about special interests, jut ask the enlightened one


Sometimes the special interests also try to block the government from fixing things, as is the case in this healthcare debate.

Quote:
it's funny how we have as many illegal aliens as we;ve lost jobs in the US over the last few years... I wonder if that's a coincidence


Hmm...might have to do with the loss of our manufacturing sector to China.  Nah...let's just blame a bunch of illiterate Mexicans.  It couldn't be our neoliberal trade policies...

Quote:
so now you're a psychic... how about we get the people involved and get it on the ballot instead of allowing your predictions and opinions dictate what will and will not happen


My predictions are based on trends in public opinion.  And there are already people trying to get pot legalization on the ballot.  They've been trying for years.  And no, I'm not psychic.  I just think.  You should try it sometime.

Quote:
is it any different than any of the other ideological bullshit and metaphysical juju that you're spewing?


Yes.  First of all, I use proper grammar.  Second of all, I don't just make shit up.


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Edited by Silversoul (09/15/09 12:29 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061871 -

Silversoul said:
Prisoner#1 said:
no, it actually doesnt, wheres the repeal of the asset seizures post mortem


I'm quite sure I don't know what you're talking about, but such a bill needn't solve every problem to make enormous progress


I see... so it's just rhetoric, Jim Carey style

Quote:
"why does it demand pre existing condition coverage"
Because that's the sensible and moral thing to do.


except there goes health care because the insurance industry cant be
sustained that way, we'll all be on medicaid with this lovely piece of
legislation because no one will have jobs

Quote:
"feel free to show me how it fixes the problems"
A strong public option would provide competition to keep costs down.  Requiring coverage for pre-existing conditions would make healthcare accessible to many people who can't currently get coverage.  It would also prevent insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick.  This is not only a moral imperative, but also makes the system more efficient, and would reduce administrative costs.


a strong public option? well, dont we already have an option for the
disadvantaged, under covered and indigent? the same people also treat
pre existing conditions

Quote:
"how it keeps the charity hospitals open"
What reason do you have for believing it wouldn't, other than your less than casual relationship with the facts?


my less than casual relationship shows that these hospitals are closing
all over, even n a strong economy they werent sustainible, many were
millions in debt before the downward slide, now government funding cant
keep them open any longer... it speaks volumes for how well the new
plan will work



Quote:
Cash for clunkers was intended to be a short-term stimulus program.


one that needed to be bailed out, it's sad when the bailouts need bailouts

Quote:
And there's no reason that universal healthcare couldn't work in the US any less than it does in other developed countries, other than insurance companies trying to block legislation, and the stupid rednecks who defend them.


except that they system they have now isnt working, it allows for free
health care for those that cant afford it, I wonder why that system is
going broke... oh yeah... immigration reform, that's where people take
from the penny jug and never put back, then when we go to cash in the
pennies we wonder what happened

enjoy the flaming ban

Quote:
like many other aspects of government, it's all about special interests, jut ask the enlightened one


Sometimes the special interests also try to block the government from fixing things, as is the case in this healthcare debate.


som special interests try and introduce things, often times things are
bad, when it comes to government... things can be typically really bad

Quote:
it's funny how we have as many illegal aliens as we;ve lost jobs in the US over the last few years... I wonder if that's a coincidence


Hmm...might have to do with the loss of our manufacturing sector to China.  Nah...let's just blame a bunch of illiterate Mexicans.  It couldn't be our neoliberal trade policies...


well, we dong have a free trade agreement with china do we? more and
more mexican products like ford, dodge, general motors, then the porous
borders and lax enforcement in immigration laws, the dozens of amnesties
allowing illegals to become citizens without submitting to the system
like millions of naturalized americans have


Quote:
so now you're a psychic... how about we get the people involved and get it on the ballot instead of allowing your predictions and opinions dictate what will and will not happen


My predictions are based on trends in public opinion.  And there are already people trying to get pot legalization on the ballot.  They've been trying for years.  And no, I'm not psychic.  I just think.  You should try it sometime.


yep... lots of predictions have been made over the years, drugs surely would have been legalized by now had public opinion and trends played any part in it

Quote:
is it any different than any of the other ideological bullshit and metaphysical juju that you're spewing?


Yes.  First of all, I use proper grammar.  Second of all, I don't just make shit up the way that you do.



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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061909 -

as far as legalizing goes, thats not gunna happen for a long....long long time.  we get to jump around and get media coverage because people are finally bored with the crap on the news, other than that not much is happening besides a bit of decriminalization or aka medical weed....and while your looking over their....

they go ninja on you and ban certain kinds of cigs and put sin taxes ect ect.  its not getting better, its getting worse.  you really think its gunna be legal by 2020?  there's a better chance of their being drug detectors in all of our cars by then forcing everyone to quit or having their car locked out.  seriously just think how much our "healthcare" would save if all cars had those:shocked:  and then of course we could always tack on a little fine for failing ontop of it:yesnod:

what do you thinks gunna happen to medical MJ when this healthcare plan goes through....my guess,  POOF  :onfire:


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

Edited by makaveli8x8 (09/15/09 01:23 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11062037 -

Prisoner#1 said:
except there goes health care because the insurance industry cant be
sustained that way, we'll all be on medicaid with this lovely piece of
legislation because no one will have jobs


Bullshit.  Germany and Switzerland have non-single-payer universal healthcare systems which cover people with pre-existing conditions.  There's a lot the insurance companies can afford to do that they're not currently doing.

Quote:
a strong public option? well, dont we already have an option for the
disadvantaged, under covered and indigent? the same people also treat
pre existing conditions


I find it curious that of all the people arguing against healthcare reform, you're the only one who argues that we already have a public option.  Probably because an incredibly stupid and intellectually dishonest argument.  Medicare and Medicaid are not available for significant segments of the population.  They do not provide any competition for the insurance industry, and thus do not keep down costs, as a public option would.

Quote:
my less than casual relationship shows that these hospitals are closing
all over, even n a strong economy they werent sustainible, many were
millions in debt before the downward slide, now government funding cant
keep them open any longer... it speaks volumes for how well the new
plan will work


It only speaks volumes about your intellectual dishonesty.  The healthcare plan being discussed has nothing to do with charity hospitals.  It's about universal coverage.  There are no plans on the table for a government takeover of hospitals.

Quote:
except that they system they have now isnt working, it allows for free
health care for those that cant afford it, I wonder why that system is
going broke... oh yeah... immigration reform, that's where people take
from the penny jug and never put back, then when we go to cash in the
pennies we wonder what happened


That mess of words doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote:
enjoy the flaming ban


What, for flaming the teabaggers?

Quote:
som special interests try and introduce things, often times things are
bad, when it comes to government... things can be typically really bad


There is some corruption in the government, sure.  But all in all, our government could be a lot worse.

Quote:
well, we dong have a free trade agreement with china do we? more and
more mexican products like ford, dodge, general motors, then the porous
borders and lax enforcement in immigration laws, the dozens of amnesties
allowing illegals to become citizens without submitting to the system
like millions of naturalized americans have


NAFTA was a bad idea, sure.  But the problem is more about the factories going there rather than the immigrants coming here.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11062212 -

Doesn't the government already control enough of are lives? Health care, Gun laws, Drug laws? It all control? Do we really want to give are government more control? When do we draw the line? How much is to much?

"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both."
            -Benjamin Franklin


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Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: chamberlaindavidd]
    #11062222 -

chamberlaindavidd said:
Doesn't the government already control enough of are lives? Health care, Gun laws, Drug laws? It all control? Do we really want to give are government more control? When do we draw the line? How much is to much?

"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both."
            -Benjamin Franklin



You fail to link how universal coverage = government control. Which countries with universal coverage have people that feel like their under government control?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062233 -

Universal coverage = Government Controlled Health Care = Government Control?


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Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062238 -

Universal coverage = Government controlled health care = Government control?


--------------------
Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: chamberlaindavidd]
    #11062247 -

chamberlaindavidd said:
Universal coverage = Government controlled health care = Government control?


Really? SO medicare must be a form of government control then also?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062273 -

In black and white, yes. Now if only the world were black and white.
The problem stems from the level of control. There is a rather large and obvious difference between the level of control medicare allows and that which your universal coverage would allow.


--------------------
Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11062515 -

Silversoul said:
Germany and Switzerland have non-single-payer universal healthcare systems which cover people with pre-existing conditions.  There's a lot the insurance companies can afford to do that they're not currently doing.


as I recall america isnt germeany or switzerland and since neither of us
live there you may want to cite your source that shows this info and
maybe demonstrate that their healthcare system is what Obama is trying
to deliver, of course then I'll be more than happy to rebut the claims

Quote:
I find it curious that of all the people arguing against healthcare reform, you're the only one who argues that we already have a public option.  Probably because an incredibly stupid and intellectually dishonest argument.  Medicare and Medicaid are not available for significant segments of the population.  They do not provide any competition for the insurance industry, and thus do not keep down costs, as a public option would.


that's so cute... first you try to push the idea that I'm the only one
talking about it and then you tell me I'm being dishonest, a few days
ago you just flat out called me a lair regarding medicare/medicaid

I'll be kind enough to introduce you to a small portion of americas
public health system, first, lets meet Grady Hospital, take note of
the heading 'vision' and then do a little reading for yourself
http://www.gradyhealthsystem.org/About/

Another Wonderful hospital, like grady, that has one of the best trauma
units in the nation is Erlanger, it's also part of the public hospital
system and to make niteowl happy, it's listed as a non-profit
http://www.erlanger.org/body.cfm?id=38

need more? you should find them all right here but you might have to read
http://www.naph.org/Main-Menu-Category/About-NAPH/About-Our-Members/Our-Members.aspx

so what's wrong, why do we need this 'public option' when we already
have the public options in place, thousands of them around the country

Quote:
Quote:
my less than casual relationship shows that these hospitals are closing
all over, even n a strong economy they werent sustainible, many were
millions in debt before the downward slide, now government funding cant
keep them open any longer... it speaks volumes for how well the new
plan will work


It only speaks volumes about your intellectual dishonesty.  The healthcare plan being discussed has nothing to do with charity hospitals.  It's about universal coverage.  There are no plans on the table for a government takeover of hospitals.



so wait... we already have free care as I've just shown yet we now need
to pay more in taxes to establish a new system that's supposed to cover
the people that this healthcare is already afforded to free of charge
from already established systems and hispitals and you're calling ME
dishonest? sounds like the messiah is the one not being honest and you'd
like to remain in denial
Quote:
Quote:
except that they system they have now isnt working, it allows for free
health care for those that cant afford it, I wonder why that system is
going broke... oh yeah... immigration reform, that's where people take
from the penny jug and never put back, then when we go to cash in the
pennies we wonder what happened


That mess of words doesn't make any sense at all.


seems intelligent people can figure it out

Quote:
Quote:
enjoy the flaming ban


What, for flaming the teabaggers?


wasnt your comment about only stupid rednecks being in opposition. seems
you've called me a stupid redneck yet you're the rich kid that is
unaware of the already existing options, seems the 'stupid rednecks' are
more knowledgeable that the wealthy college kids


Quote:
Quote:
well, we dong have a free trade agreement with china do we? more and
more mexican products like ford, dodge, general motors, then the porous
borders and lax enforcement in immigration laws, the dozens of amnesties
allowing illegals to become citizens without submitting to the system
like millions of naturalized americans have


NAFTA was a bad idea, sure.  But the problem is more about the factories going there rather than the immigrants coming here.



really? if one million jobs move to mexico that's a loss of 1 million
jobs, if 20 million illegal aliens come to the US looking for work then
that's 20 million jobs lost to a cheap labor force, one that drives down
the wage for blue collar workers, but wait, surely not all 20 million
get work, only about 1/4 of them do... what are the other 15 million
doing for income, are they adding to the crime rate, are they sponging
off the system?

so lets see, we have 15million out of work illegals, 5 million working
illegals that arent contributing to the system, 3/4 of them drawing from
the system that they arent contributing to, making use of the existing
public health options that the citizens are contributing to and you
believe that the loss of a million jobs to mexico might be a bigger deal
than the loss of 5million+ jobs domestically, the driving down of wages
and the consumption of public resources

seems the 'intellectual dishonesty' falls on your lap


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11062675 -

pris, can you and whoever please stop responding in multi-quoted responses meant to look like a point by point debate? Neither you, me or anyone else is making a worthy attempt at persuasive, intellectual debate. We can argue generallities well and thats about it.


Do you really think the public options we have are suitable when roughly half of bankruptcy filings in the US are caused by medical bills (journal; Health affairs Feb 2005.)

People can work hard their whole life and never accept one dollar from a government handout, then have their financial livelihood ripped away due to illness (the only alternative being death.)

Is protecting the so called American dream not a compelling argument for expanding heath coverage to all? (or expanding government control if saying it that way makes you argue less??)


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062806 -

The money to pay for the procedures has to come from somewhere...  If it does not come directly from the individual through their personal health insurance costs or out of pocket it could be paid by government...

Government pays for it through increased taxes and inflation of the money supply.

Inflation of the money supply hurts poor folk far worse than the rich.

The problem with government welfare programs is that the poor people it is "supposed to help" id est; grandma & grandpa living on a pension, find that their once halfway decent fixed income DOESN'T BUY SHIT ANYMORE because big government programs are paid for through the creation of new money which devalues their fixed income dramatically!

(Sorry about the run on sentence for all the "grammar nazis" out there....)


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062944 -

rodfarva said:
pris, can you and whoever please stop responding in multi-quoted responses meant to look like a point by point debate? Neither you, me or anyone else is making a worthy attempt at persuasive, intellectual debate. We can argue generallities well and thats about it.


you must not be reading this thread then because it more than explains
numerous issues with the proposed system as well as what's currently in
place, just because you choose to ignore what's being said by either
side doesnt mean that no one is making a persuasive argument, the points
I've made about the current system as well as Al's points about the
economic impact are both valid and compelling

everyone that supports it wants to say "well the germans and canadians"
well, unlike the US the germans have a pretty streamlined parliamentary
process, they cut out a great deal of government waste, they dont load
their bills down with thousands of contradictory amendments, they value
simplicity. The US is just the opposite, our policy makers like to keep
the bills like the american people are portrayed, bloated and retarded


Quote:
Do you really think the public options we have are suitable when roughly half of bankruptcy filings in the US are caused by medical bills




it doesnt have to be that way and it doesnt have to be accomplished
through 'universal' health care, I've already shown that we have an
extensive public health care network in place that does a great deal
of work through charity but for some odd reason no one wants to see it
they all seem to want to see the obama plan, if I cant afford healthcare
I can hop my happy ass on public transport and hit the health clinic, if
it's more serious I can hit one of the 3 local hospitals, one of which
is public funded or I can hit one of a dozen public hospitals within 100
miles of me so why punish me and the rest of america just because 15%
are too stupid to figure it out


Quote:
People can work hard their whole life and never accept one dollar from a government handout, then have their financial livelihood ripped away due to illness (the only alternative being death.)

Is protecting the so called American dream not a compelling argument for expanding heath coverage to all? (or expanding government control if saying it that way makes you argue less??)



how would this universal healthcare be anything more than a means of
destroying the american dream, it's exactly what everyone is bitching
about with the rising costs of 'private' healthcare, it's taking more
money for the services that are already offered all over the country
at literally thousands of publicly funded hospitals so now instead of
robbing peter to give to paul, we rob peter and paul and give to ceaser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_hospital#United_States


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11063029 -

niteowl said:
I believe that people should have to pass a P.T. test before they get insurance.

Your rates should be based on how well you maintain your body.

I'm not talking about going to the extreme like the military.

But everyone (15-55) should be able to walk ~2-3 miles in an hour.

If you can't get on a treadmill and do that simple task, then you should be charged more for coverage.

Exercise should be a requirement of everyone, starting in school.

I'm not talking about extreme levels of exercise. Just enough to keep you healthy enough to be able to walk a couple of miles in a certain time. Maybe have them keep their BMI index below a certain point. If you can't do these things then you have to pay higher premiums and co-pays.

This puts a lot of a persons level of health directly in their hands.

If you wanna be a fat fucking slob then your gonna have to pay the extra $$$ for that privilege.

For those people that make an effort to stay healthy, they get to pay the least for their premiums and co-pays

:2cents:


I haven't read past this post yet, but figured I'd start with this. This is a good idea, I like what you put forth here. For all the naysaying I do about compulsory anything, I'd love to see a discourse about how compulsory physical exercise would be bad.

Anyhow, as far as the selection above that I've chosen, I always have - and always will - have a problem with the BMI scale. Apparently, I'm 35.1% body fat and am "obese". Yes, I'm 5'10" and 245 pounds, but I'd like to have any competent physical trainer professionally tell me I consist of 1/3 fat. Heck, I'd like to see an average person call me fat.

The BMI is just as much a sham as the food pyramid is. I'm healthy. I exercise. I'm just built like a brick shit house; nothing I can do about it. Yeah, I could be in better shape, but there's no way I'm even half of that "trusted index" that doctors push.

I would hate to see that implemented into a system that judges health care for an individual. Call me "stocky", but good luck calling me "obese" or 35% body fat. When I was 200lbs my hair was falling out, my health was suffering, I was cold all the time, I was told by numerous people I should see a doctor if I have an eating disorder, told by doctors to start eating more and stop exercising or I'd kill myself.

Then, I've got my primary care physician running bloodwork for all this, telling me I need to lose 40 lbs because I'm obese, LOL.


Otherwise, nice post.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063046 -

"I'd love to see a discourse about how compulsory physical exercise would be bad."






Starting at Minute 2:



--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11063067 -

Yeah, yeah. I've seen the film.

Nothing better than a fictional work...

People would never let it get that bad. No way. Not even the sheep.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063072 -

Dystopia said:
niteowl said:
Exercise should be a requirement of everyone, starting in school.

I'm not talking about extreme levels of exercise. Just enough to keep you healthy enough to be able to walk a couple of miles in a certain time. Maybe have them keep their BMI index below a certain point. If you can't do these things then you have to pay higher premiums and co-pays.



I haven't read past this post yet, but figured I'd start with this. This is a good idea, I like what you put forth here. For all the naysaying I do about compulsory anything, I'd love to see a discourse about how compulsory physical exercise would be bad.


and we should legislate disease and death right out of existence :rolleyes:




Quote:
Otherwise, nice post.


ideology with no foundation or hops of making it to reality


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