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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11058704 -

I got my doctor. My bush doctor...



...Legalize.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11058926 -

Im not calling you a sheep, it's a valid perspective that all televised/print media is flawed once commercialiced.
Just like theres a flaw in contracting private soldiers and healthcare.

This thread isn't the debate on health care that will conclude the argument. I just dont know to many other places to sound in on this topic. We're polarized on the issue at hand, and im not trying to score points in the argument. I follow your reasoning and am still not compelled to a different thought direction. :shrug:

keep it going tho. We have a pretty good serious conversation here. I would like to hear more from the international posters. (NON-US)

The other place i found most interesting to talk about this topic is a graduate class on racism im in.
This issue's reflection seems to collide with the war on drugs in terms of its effect on minorities in the US.
If it can be done well, and in the event there is a solution enacted that most Americans are happy about, it would be a large step toward racial equality in this country.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11059252 -

rodfarva said:
buckwheat said:
No THIS is the reason why the US is afraid of universal health care.

Cost is really on the bottom of my concerns


Quote:
Here's some stats recently published in The Investors Business Daily (although various sources cite slight variations to these depending on the year of study, the trend is clear and consistent)

In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive their first treatment within six months. In Canada, only 43% do. And in England, only 15% do.

In the US, 77% of patients waiting to see a medical specialist are seen by one within four weeks. In Canada, 43% are, and in England 40% needing a medical specialist seen by one within four weeks.

In the US, there are 71 MRI/CT machines per million people. In Canada there are 18 per million. And in England, there are 14 per million.

In the US, the 5-year survival rate for leukemia is about 50%. In Europe, it is 35%.

In the US, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 81%. In France, it is 62%. And in England, it's 44%.



Im sure your not arguing to the center of the issue because your failing to describe how any of this should effect governing and policy decisions. you do bring up some interesting points about what would cause personal fear of such a system. Remember, people are only units of statistical measurement in America. Read that last sentence again.

I think whoever did those surveys needs to get their priorities straight, and execute a study that considers confounding variables if they wish to analyse such a serious issue! Consider what the results would be if you cross tabulated those results with subsections of the population in each country mentioned. (if i had an hour i would produce the data equivalents, but for now you will only get my hypothesis...) 

First off i would cross tabulate a statistical relationship to ethnic discrimination by comparing how many minority citizens received treatment within 6 months when diagnosed with diabetes, or survived prostate cancer or saw a specialist. My hypothesis is that only the USA would have a disparity within minority populations (greater than %10.)

The next thing that bothers me about this is the prostate cancer survival rate. I would like to know what the parameters were for this. What defines a prostate cancer patient? once the cancer takes over it spreads to other organs, the blood, or multiple places in the body. This means when the patient dies the cause of death becomes cancer of the ____. if diagnosed with prostate cancer before the spread, that patient would most likely be considered a "prostate cancer" respondent.

The problem with this is in the US people without regular exams (for whatever reason.. poor, laid off, no public requirement etc.)would not be diagnosed as "prostate cancer" patients. They would die with cancer all over their body and this would be considered a different ailment, therefore only some of those that were not diagnosed with "prostate cancer" would actually die from cancer in the prostate alone excluding them from the results. The fact is a random patient is vastly more likely to be diagnosed and documented in countries such as england or canada, making the survival rate more similar than this statistic want to acknowledge. 

This could be quantified by statistically proving, by country, prostate cancer survival rate among patients that received regular check ups and comparing that data to the previous survey's results; with the rule that if prostate cancer is diagnosed alone before other cancer positives, the respondent will be included. My hypothesis is that survival rate depends on early diagnosis, thus those not diagnosed before death should be considered spurious to statistical conclusions.

I know many people take "statistical evidence" such as u present for face value, and many of you will have gotten bored or confused and not read my post. All i have to say is read between the line when you attempt to analyze a presentation ment to sway your political opinion. Especially when the case is being made by a blaitantly republican biased publication such as Investors Business Daily.



Regarding "ethnic discrimination" what they are trying to determine is quality of treatment. Not how who gets it.Two separate problems.


As prostate cancer assumption.It's just that. I mean i am not familiar in this at all. Show some proof.


Those numbers still show a trend for the US to have better treatmen. Once it's available to a person. Take the MRI/CT machine numbers that alone is telling

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11059357 -

Quote:
Regarding "ethnic discrimination" what they are trying to determine is quality of treatment. Not how who gets it.Two separate problems.


As prostate cancer assumption.It's just that. I mean i am not familiar in this at all. Show some proof.


Those numbers still show a trend for the US to have better treatmen. Once it's available to a person. Take the MRI/CT machine numbers that alone is telling




These are narrow examples of quality of treatment the world health organization has quantified more general indicators such as average lifespan by country. Americans live several years less than the countries mentioned ^. These general indicators determine the quality of a nations healthcare that determine their over all rankings. The US is 30+ in the world, 20+ when you pull out small nations and countries that arnt similar to the 1st world applications we're discussing. If care is better here why are we behind Australia, France England, Canada etc...

At least currently im better off here if i need mri's or prostate treatment. That still leaves quite a bit open tho.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11059438 -

rodfarva said:
Quote:
Regarding "ethnic discrimination" what they are trying to determine is quality of treatment. Not how who gets it.Two separate problems.


As prostate cancer assumption.It's just that. I mean i am not familiar in this at all. Show some proof.


Those numbers still show a trend for the US to have better treatmen. Once it's available to a person. Take the MRI/CT machine numbers that alone is telling




These are narrow examples of quality of treatment the world health organization has quantified more general indicators such as average lifespan by country. Americans live several years less than the countries mentioned ^. These general indicators determine the quality of a nations healthcare that determine their over all rankings. The US is 30+ in the world, 20+ when you pull out small nations and countries that arnt similar to the 1st world applications we're discussing. If care is better here why are we behind Australia, France England, Canada etc...

At least currently im better off here if i need mri's or prostate treatment. That still leaves quite a bit open tho.


Average lifespan means nothing when you include our high homicide rate and our tendency to live unhealthier lives.

Ive seen those  criteria for Health care and personally think they are a joke but apparently people have different priorities about health care. I wish there was a way we can keep that competitiveness in medical treatment and provide universal health care. This bill in congress certainly isnt it.On the surface a voucher/coupon idea seems good but i haven't given it much time.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11060056 -

rodfarva said:
Im not calling you a sheep, it's a valid perspective that all televised/print media is flawed once commercialiced.
Just like theres a flaw in contracting private soldiers and healthcare.


and it's government that's contracting those private soldiers and now attempting with health care

Quote:
This thread isn't the debate on health care that will conclude the argument.


you're right, and it's not about anything more than who's afraid of the
big bad wolf, well, it seems that most americans arent afraid of it,
they just know better that to want it passed because they know the
repercussions of only getting 55% of their gross income as opposed to
80% and then having to still make the bills

Quote:
I follow your reasoning and am still not compelled to a different thought direction. :shrug:


well the first issue is you're making assumptions as opposed to doing the research

Quote:
keep it going tho. We have a pretty good serious conversation here. I would like to hear more from the international posters. (NON-US)


as do I, even with many of the countries like canada and australia the
reviews regarding their health care are mixed, since we arent living
there we cant truly judge because we only get what we're fed by media
sources or in many cases hearsay which tends to be fictitious

Quote:
The other place i found most interesting to talk about this topic is a graduate class on racism im in.
This issue's reflection seems to collide with the war on drugs in terms of its effect on minorities in the US.
If it can be done well, and in the event there is a solution enacted that most Americans are happy about, it would be a large step toward racial equality in this country.




my views on that topic are pretty interesting as well, immediately the
class strikes me as  racism in it's self by showing that (my assumption)
that many of the drug laws are geared towards locking up 'minorities'
yet social programs are geared towards aiding these 'minorities',
hinestly... using terms like minority to refer to people with a
different color or ethnic background is racism in it's self, but really,
shouldnt this be subject for another thread


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11060084 -

buckwheat said:
Average lifespan means nothing when you include our high homicide rate and our tendency to live unhealthier lives.


it means nothing when you also consider that most men went to war 150+
years ago, men being kids as young as 14, it wasnt until after viet nam
that the US really started cracking down on it, one of my uncles enlisted
at 15, his mother signed the papers for him


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11060101 -

Prisoner#1 said:
I guess the concept of 'when government gets involved it fucks it all
up' eludes you


I love how you say that as if it's some scientific law, when it's actually just ideological bullshit.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11060237 -

about the illegals... we already pay for their healthcare, it's called the hippocratic oath. by law, hospitals cannot turn down a patient who has a medical emergency. it either gets subsidized by the state or the hospital. and they don't pay a dime.

i got some other points too but i'm kinda tired right now.

i'm totally a libertarian but from my limited knowledge of this issue i think a public option would be best to drive down cost by way of competition. i do however disagree that it should be mandated and would rather it be a choice like the postal system.

all the comments i've heard from socialised healthcare users seem to like their system, and wouldn't in hell trade it for ours. it seems like their main problem is the lack of doctors, and even still i don't think that's an issue of pay, more of training. perhaps if they incentivized those particular careers they'd have shorter wait times.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #11061088 -

As doctors in the states spend nearly twice the time in school compared to the UK (because in the US they also have to do a bachelors), their debts are higher and they start practicing when they are older, giving them less time to cover their debts.

At the same time, we wonder why there is a shortage of GPs, who earn the least, and take much longer to cover their debts.

Instead of subsidizing GPs, perhaps medical school should be a year longer but not require a bachelors to begin with so their debt is lower, doctors graduate sooner, gain more experience, and have more time to specialize if they choose.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061320 -

Quote:
well the first issue is you're making assumptions as opposed to doing the research


You would be surprised. Besides trying to show you what i know, or come up with some compelling solution to a problem no one else seems to be able to fix, why don't you attack the assumptions that i make in regard to the argument. Your making me into a straw man here. I have excellent insurance and would most certainly loose quite a bit of attention from my Dr. if this obama plan goes into affect!

Im not arguing for Obama and whatever his mysterious plan is, but i can state without a doubt i am against the cost of treatment for the uninsured, and the resulting lack of care in this country. People fear universal healthcare, and theres some compelling reasons to. My empathy for those who cant get proper medical attention offends my honor, and i accept the chance i may suffer to help my neighbor.

Your arguing a fallacy throughout this entire thread; The nirvana fallacy.
You say its not a good alternative because it isn't perfect. My points are not wrong because i dont know what exatcly we should do other than provide the medical coverage for any American who needs it. Thats what im arguing essentially, and i can't say im happy about any of the personal side effects this will have.

Your reacting heavily to the sad state of affairs, and im with you more than you think. It's not exactly fair that my "pay in" private coverage is disgustingly inflated by people trying to kill themselves with Mcdonalds, stress, and lack of exorcise.  I hate the idea of adding to the size of government, but damn if it's fair practice when people run huge insurance bills for dentist visits when they could have spent %1 of that just getting regular cleanings.

In Canada your required to get your teeth cleaned twice a year or you face fees or loss of benefits. It lowers cost, and it's smart. The bad side is it infringes on personal freedom.

Our Democracy will make those choices for us in the coming months, I hope they change things for the better. The issue needs to be addressed now.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061410 -

Silversoul said:
Prisoner#1 said:
I guess the concept of 'when government gets involved it fucks it all
up' eludes you


I love how you say that as if it's some scientific law, when it's actually just ideological bullshit.


well please explain why we need this new healthcare plan as opposed to
fixing what's there, hasnt government fucked it up, the people arent
writing these bills, the elected officials are, what's government done
with this economy that makes it so wonderful right now, what about the
military, welfare, immigration, drug law reform... seems to me politics
is actually some ideological bullshit


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11061483 -

rodfarva said:
In Canada your required to get your teeth cleaned twice a year or you face fees or loss of benefits. It lowers cost, and it's smart. The bad side is it infringes on personal freedom.


I think that we need some kind of system like that.
Require people to see an MD/dentist twice a year for a check up
Dr's can give advice on lifestyle changes.

I also believe that there should be a minimum PT test
walk at a 3mph pace for ~20 min and then check basic body functions
You have to show an improvement in your ability to exercise each visit
until you reach the ability to walk for ~20 minutes and not be negatively affected

The U.S. needs to re-think how we keep healthy.
Eating shitty foods and not exercising causes more disease than smoking

Just by maintaining a basic level of fitness we will
reduce the cases of high blood pressure and diabetes

the way the system is set up now, the medical field profits from disease
the insurance companies and the big pharms do not want a healthy public

If everyone started eating right and exercising
many companies would loose money

that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11061533 -

Quote:
that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation


... Im just worried about them becoming the pleasure police. They already tell us what substances we can't put in our bodies, what could be next? outlawing steak? I wouldn't put it past them. Complex problems need careful answers.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11061602 -

rodfarva said:
People fear universal healthcare


that's the assumption... you say it's fear as opposed to disdain


Quote:
My empathy for those who cant get proper medical attention offends my honor, and i accept the chance i may suffer to help my neighbor.


another fallacy, it's there, they have to go and seek the medical
attention, they cant expect the hospitals  to come to them and guess
what, you're already suffering so that they can get the care they choose
not to pursue

Quote:
Your arguing a fallacy throughout this entire thread; The nirvana fallacy.
You say its not a good alternative because it isn't perfect. My points are not wrong because i dont know what exatcly we should do other than provide the medical coverage for any American who needs it. Thats what im arguing essentially, and i can't say im happy about any of the personal side effects this will have.


it's nothing about being perfect, it's about passing redundant
legislation to establish nothing more than what's already there only
with a broader scope and more regulation, something that may cost a
hundred thousand more jobs by putting a lot of private insurance
carriers out of business. some of what I'm seeing in this bill is also
heavily imposes on private enterprise

all the while we already have all of this without more regulation on
private industry to force them to take bad debt, the same thing that got
us into the housing crisis




Quote:
In Canada your required to get your teeth cleaned twice a year or you face fees or loss of benefits. It lowers cost, and it's smart. The bad side is it infringes on personal freedom.


and lets not forget how it can also create financial hardships, the loss
of coverage and the fees and still paying those taxes to cover it, I
believe you mentioned fairness... is there any fairness in the way
government handles business

Quote:
Our Democracy will make those choices for us in the coming months,



our 'leaders' will make those decisions, if our democracy were making
them then it would be on the ballot for the people to decide, it wouldnt
be government going against the will of the people as they've done so
often, remember the patriot act, do you think that vote was really
representative of the people, how about all these 'stimulus' bills, all
the polls I'd seen showed far less support from the people than it did
from congress

what is government so afraid of that so many issue will never see the ballots


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061641 -

I don't care what they do. I just want my medications and I'll take them with a weapon if it's not given to me when I am too poor to buy it. At least there is healthcare in prison.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061649 -

Quote:
and lets not forget how it can also create financial hardships, the loss
of coverage and the fees and still paying those taxes to cover it, I
believe you mentioned fairness... is there any fairness in the way
government handles business


In Michigan, you are required to carry no fault auto insurance if you own a car.  What if the government mandated everyone must buy a minimum health insurance? It would only be fair to the people that pay taxes that go to medicare. Right??????????//

Your right, the implications of this are HUGE. Prepare for them.
History says bush got off clean, but the democrats were able to take over. WE are going to see a shit storm of policies that change quite a bit. Do you see anyway something positive could happen from Obama healthcare.. or what im guessing will be the Ted Kennedy universal coverage bill?

BTW that black bush nonsense is suffocating. If :obama: was black bush this thread wouldn't exists.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061651 -

Prisoner#1 said:
well please explain why we need this new healthcare plan as opposed to
fixing what's there


What do you mean "fixing what's there"?  THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS PLAN DOES!

Quote:
hasnt government fucked it up


Government has fucked up when it's delegated its responsibilities to the private sector, such as with Medicare Advantage.

Quote:
the people arent writing these bills, the elected officials are


Uh...yeah.  That's called representative democracy.  I wouldn't trust someone like you to write my shopping list, let alone a bill.  That's why we have representatives with legal and economic advisors to help them write a bill.

Quote:
what's government done with this economy that makes it so wonderful right now


They stopped the bleeding with the stimulus package.  The cash for clunkers program was a huge success.  And given the superb track record of universal healthcare in other countries, we can expect that such a program here would help our economy as well.

Quote:
what about the military, welfare, immigration, drug law reform...


The military is a necessary function of government that has unfortunately been coopted by private special interests to further their agendas overseas.  Welfare programs like social security have been a great blessing for the average American, to the extent that it's become a "third rail" of politics.  The only welfare most people complain about is welfare for other people, due to a lack of compassion, and a mistaken belief that a large portion of their taxes go to it.  Immigration is a small problem that conservative blowhards make out to be a huge problem because they need a scapegoat.  Drug law reform is happening slowly but surely around the world and in several states.  I predict that by 2020, pot will be legal in most US states, if not nationally.

Quote:
seems to me politics is actually some ideological bullshit


And yet the opinions you spout here are explicitly political.  Is this your way of admitting that you're spouting ideological bullshit?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11061657 -

rodfarva said:
Quote:
that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation


... Im just worried about them becoming the pleasure police. They already tell us what substances we can't put in our bodies, what could be next? outlawing steak? I wouldn't put it past them. Complex problems need careful answers.


I don't think that will become an issue
many people drink alcohol on occasion and remain healthy

look at Phelps

all that is needed is a base line measurement for overall health
walking at a brisk pace for 20 min is a good indicator of overall health
some people will have to work harder to attain the ability to do it
but even the heaviest smoker could get himself into good enough shape to do it

this plan would greatly improve the overall health of Americans
reducing the cost of health care and taking away from the profits of big pharms

this is one of the reasons I'm afraid that nothing like this will even be discussed


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11061671 -

niteowl said:
also believe that there should be a minimum PT test
walk at a 3mph pace for ~20 min and then check basic body functions
You have to show an improvement in your ability to exercise each visit
until you reach the ability to walk for ~20 minutes and not be negatively affected


so now you're advocating that we remove the profits and now make good
health a law, what happens of someone cant pass the PT training, are
they exiled, executed, imprisoned or heavily fined until you're capable
of passing the tests, well comrade stalin, how will we achieve that, how
will the single mothers of 5 manage to get a day off work to take the
battery of tests and still be able to feed her kids and pay her rent, we
can make it mandatory that employers pay an off day for it, yeah, punish
those that provide the jobs and cut deeper into their pockets


I know, lets legislate all the restaurants right out of business unless
they're salad/vegan only but then what shall we do about the people that
dont eat out but still put on the weight, should we outlaw home cooking
without government monitors checking all we buy and cook, maybe outlaw
the foods in the stores so all they can carry is a few veggies


Quote:
the way the system is set up now, the medical field profits from disease
the insurance companies and the big pharms do not want a healthy public



just like the government that's in big pharmas pocket

Quote:
If everyone started eating right and exercising
many companies would loose money

that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation



well, surely you can outline the plan better than I just did as to how
this would take place, maybe you can explain how we can remove the
incentives and still keep a viable system... so far you've spouted anti
profit rhetoric without suggestion on how it could actually work


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