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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11050974 -

i love how the actual issue of healthcare keeps being avoided and you guys start simply attacking obama.

why would i want the government to get involved in making sure it's citizens are able to have health insurance?  gee, i don't know, maybe because there are 46.3 MILLION uninsured.  maybe because private healthcare has been making a complete mockery of the system, charging absolutely absurd rates for even the most basic care.  maybe because like rodfarva pointed out, we're number 1 in GDP by multiples of the nearest nation, yet so many still cannot afford a simple necessity in life.  maybe because we've seen integrated private/public healthcare systems work abroad far better than our current system.

i just don't know.  it could be any number of those things.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051009 -

Obama is a good guy. I can't believe everyone attacks him either? This is a President that actually wants to help our nation, yet people bash him constantly.

Now his cabinet might be different and his czars, but ultimately we didn't vote for them, we voted for him and I think if America actually gives him time to straighten economic issues out, we will like the end result.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051194 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
i love how the actual issue of healthcare keeps being avoided and you guys start simply attacking obama.


like you're attacking bush, a FORMER president that has nothing to do
with this health care plan, that didnt create the financial crisis that
didnt fly a couple of planes into buildings in new york sparking a war
in the middle east

Quote:
why would i want the government to get involved in making sure it's citizens are able to have health insurance?  gee, i don't know, maybe because there are 46.3 MILLION uninsured.


then why arent you advocating the overhaul of the system government has
already put into place several decades ago as opposed to new legislation
how many of those 46million people are citizens and how many are
illegals that we'll be paying the medical bills for


Quote:
i just don't know. 



well that's quite obvious


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11051200 -

46.3 Million citizens.  US citizens, paperwork and all.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11051212 -

TrancedShroom said:
Obama is a good guy. I can't believe everyone attacks him either? This is a President that actually wants to help our nation, yet people bash him constantly.


how does expanding the size and scope of government aid the people, how
does dumping trillions of dollars into financial institutions help the
people, how does bailing out businesses that have forsaken the very
people that put them at the top until recent years help the american people

Dubya gave them tax breaks, they moved to mexico, Obama gave them
billions and they sent billions overseas with the claim that they wanted
to prevent the same disaster from happening in the other markets

Quote:
we voted for him and I think if America actually gives him time to straighten economic issues out, we will like the end result.


then why isnt he focusing on his number one priority instead of this
health care bill, why do you think those that voted for him are losing
faith in this word... could it be because he's just...



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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051216 -

and so far as bush's involvement in the crisis.  internationally, no he didn't start it.  but domestically, that's damned debatable. 

quite honestly, i can't believe you stand up for him.  he will literally go down in the history books as the worst president.  i just can't conceive how someone such as yourself, who appears lucid and competent, can actually support him.

but the puppets are neither here nor there.  healthcare is the issue at hand.  the current system simply is not working.  it's too much of a profit-garnering industry.  CEOs should not be getting hugely fat and rich off healthcare, when so many millions of americans are struggling to afford the most basic forms.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051217 -

When government gets involved in a particular industry it gets expensive.  The extensive government regulation of healthcare has made it expensive.  Government programs reduce competition in the marketplace by wiping out the private market.  The government healthcare programs are paid for by inflation and taxes.  A few well connected corporations would make a killing providing healthcare through the government.  Prices for medical procedures would go through the roof BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT "HOOK UP" THEIR BUDDIES.  It is called crony capitalism.  Halliburton receiving a large number of no-bid contracts in Iraq is a great example of crony capitalism at work.


Obama's campaign raised more money than any campaign in history.  The money came from REALLY deep pockets.  It is foolish and naive to think that the puppet has your best interests in mind.  The individuals who forked over the cash to fund him own his ass. 


You would have thought that the Auto bailout would have pointed that out.  Some of his biggest contributors were auto-unions. 


Chicago is a very corrupt place full of well funded organized crime.  That's where he started his political career.




The debt America is in is unsustainable.  The clown is spending money faster than anything we've seen before.  It is bankrupting the nation.  We can not afford it.

Instead of buying into the cult of personality you should study some real economics - mises.org


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051248 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
and so far as bush's involvement in the crisis.  internationally, no he didn't start it.  but domestically, that's damned debatable. 


it started with carter, was followed up by many pieces of legislation by
clinton and this is the domestic end, it's far from debatable, it's
documented fact

Quote:
quite honestly, i can't believe you stand up for him.


I dont see the point in being the Obama, lay the blame at the feet of
the people responsible, dont just blame the previous administration just
because the public already has a bad taste in their mouths for the guy

 
Quote:
he will literally go down in the history books as the worst president.


obamas term has just begun

 
Quote:
i just can't conceive how someone such as yourself, who appears lucid and competent, can actually support him.




because I'm not blinded by media hype


Quote:
healthcare is the issue at hand.  the current system simply is not working.  it's too much of a profit-garnering industry.  CEOs should not be getting hugely fat and rich off healthcare, when so many millions of americans are struggling to afford the most basic forms.



so you're saying it boils down to profit, you dont want to see  someone
else wealthy if you arent, the foundation of a business is to eventually
generate a profit, they wouldnt start one regardless of it's nature if
there was no money in it, if you want to discuss profiting off the backs
of others, look at charities... as I've mentioned a dozen times there's
already a public health care system in place that includes clinics,
hospitals and even  insurance programs, so why exactly do we need
another one that's going to be fucked up just as badly as what we have
now... why not repair what we have since we're in a time of economic
crisis, doesnt frugality make sense when people are going homeless


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11051264 -

i'm actually not even a whole-hearted supporter of obama.  i simply think he deserves more than 9 months to prove his worth.

simply having a public option does not mean medical costs would rise.  you're working under the assumption that we'd have corruption like that of the soviet union before it's fall.  i'm not going to deny the existence corruption, but i highly doubt it would be to the extent that the cost of procedures would "go through the roof".  hell, they're already about 10x the cost of the exact same procedures abroad.  your assumption of crony capitalism does not, in fact, fit into standard economics models, of which i'm quite familiar given i have a degree in economics (as well as mngt & society).

and once again, i'm done discussing the presidents.  they're neither here nor there in relation to the fact that in the current system, a much too high proportion of americans simply cannot receive affordable healthcare.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11051357 -

Prisoner#1 said:
so you're saying it boils down to profit, you dont want to see someone else wealthy if you arent


Jesus Christ man, that isn't the issue at all.

Health care should not be a FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION

I could care less how rich the CEO of Ford Motors gets.
People don't have to own a new fucking car, it's a luxury.
People have to be healthy in order for our country to prosper.
Your health should not be based on how much money you make

Having a medical organization with its main concern being profit instead of helping people.........is EVIL and wrong
For a Dr to make millions a year for NOT helping sick people.......is EVIL and wrong
That's how our system functions now and it is sad.

Profiting on the suffering of others is wrong and should be illegal in the U.S.

Quote:
as I've mentioned a dozen times there's
already a public health care system in place that includes clinics,
hospitals and even  insurance programs


The fact that these programs are not offered to everyone makes them unfair.

I should have to option to buy into either the most expensive or the least expensive insurance programs out there.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11051514 -

TrancedShroom said:
Obama is a good guy. I can't believe everyone attacks him either? This is a President that actually wants to help our nation, yet people bash him constantly.

Now his cabinet might be different and his czars, but ultimately we didn't vote for them, we voted for him and I think if America actually gives him time to straighten economic issues out, we will like the end result.


Let me see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense.

Who did Bush and Clinton work for? Corporations
Who does obama work for? Corporations

NOT YOU

Stop this silly shit argument please, there is only us and them.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11051560 -

niteowl said:
Prisoner#1 said:
so you're saying it boils down to profit, you dont want to see someone else wealthy if you arent


Jesus Christ man, that isn't the issue at all.

Health care should not be a FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION



really because his statement as well as yours say otherwise, seriously why would profit be brought into it if profit wasnt an issue, doctards invest many thouands of dolars into education, shouldnt they see a return on that investment, wouldnt that return be a profit, most doctors are a business entity licensed by the state and you guys say they shouldnt be earning all that cash, well guess what, take away the incentive and they'll be gone, the same holds true for insurance

but since government sponsored health care is what we're discussing, lets look at how well government has run everything else like medicare,
medicaid, the VA hospitals, the state funded hospitals, yeah, it certainly seems that government knows what the fuck they're doing since hundreds of hospitals are closing

hey, lets take a look at a few of these hospitals, especially the govt run and not-for-profit system you seem to be so fond of

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28394340/
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/2009/03/01/2009-03-01_councilman_eric_gioia_rips_hospital_clos.html
http://www.nurseweek.com/features/99-5/hospital.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NUZ/is_11_11/ai_n7070302/


even the shriners hospitals to whom I've donated a lot of money over they years are closing their doors
http://open.salon.com/blog/coyoteoldstyle/2009/05/04/shriners_hospital_closings_are_no_laughing_matter


but guess what, there's some hospitals that arent closing in a time when we have a $1.3bn budget deficit, can you guess which ones?


Quote:
I could care less how rich the CEO of Ford Motors gets.
People don't have to own a new fucking car, it's a luxury.
People have to be healthy in order for our country to prosper.
Your health should not be based on how much money you make


I care because many of those paychecks are tax payer funded and since
when does it matter how much money you make, the government requires all
hospitals to accept patients for emergency services and life saving
treatments regardless of their income or ability to pay, as it stands we
have plenty of healthy people but government has allowed a roadblock to
prevent out prosperity, hasnt it occurred to anyone that it's the
government that's fucking the system up...


Quote:
Having a medical organization with its main concern being profit instead of helping people.........is EVIL and wrong
For a Dr to make millions a year for NOT helping sick people.......is EVIL and wrong
That's how our system functions now and it is sad.



and you're completely wrong, which doctors make millions per year for
not helping unless they're under the government agenda of 'no
unnecessary procedures', in fact how many doctors are making millions
from any sort of patient care, hell as I've pointed out a hundred times
the government makes more from health care, they collect taxes from
everyone to pay for medical care under it's programs and then turn
around and seize the assets of those that received it after their death
now lets talk about what's evil and unfair

Quote:
Profiting on the suffering of others is wrong and should be illegal in the U.S.


profiting by making others suffer is the governments role in the world
now, what was it that should be illegal?

Quote:
Quote:
as I've mentioned a dozen times there's
already a public health care system in place that includes clinics,
hospitals and even  insurance programs


The fact that these programs are not offered to everyone makes them unfair.


so why fuck around with all this time and money when revamping the
system that's in place is what needs to be done, since hospitals cant
turn you away for emergency treatment it's not like people are unable to
get the services, as we can tell, not everyone want these services anyway

Quote:
I should have to option to buy into either the most expensive or the least expensive insurance programs out there.


you have that option, that's why there's the ability to shop around, pay
your phone bill and make a few calls, if it's government mandated then
there's no shopping around, everyone pays whether they want to or not


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11053181 -

Quote:
but since government sponsored health care is what we're discussing, lets look at how well government has run everything else like medicare,
medicaid, the VA hospitals, the state funded hospitals, yeah, it certainly seems that government knows what the fuck they're doing since hundreds of hospitals are closing


Using medicare as an explanatory example of what the gov will do with universal healthcare is like sending 10 % of an army to battle, and expecting to win the war.

General pris: "you say we need 10 times as many resources to win this fight?"
colnel: "yes it's the only way to meet our objectives."
General Pris: "well Lets send in the first 10 % and see how they do first.... wouldn't want to get in over our heads"


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11054155 -

For profit healthcare, explanation from inception.
And may I say, Fuck nixon.

Quote:
Nixon on health care
From Kaiserthrive.org:

Perhaps the best introduction to the Kaiser HMO and Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Plan is the summary by Mr. Edgar Kaiser that the less Kaiser does for patients the more money it makes. To get the full context one can go to the University of Virginia and review the presentation Mr. Edgar Kaiser (then Kaiser CEO) made to President Nixon through Mr. Erlichman — the less we do the more we earn. This convinced President Nixon to go forward with the HMO Act of 1973 with Kaiser as the template. The conversation is recorded below within the Nixon White House Tapes:

John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”

President Nixon: “Yeah.”

Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.’”

President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”

Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.”

President Nixon: “All right.”

Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.”

President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.”

Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”

President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”

Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”

The preceding transcription is from the University of Virginia for the clearest possible presentation (pathway discovered by Vickie Travis). Check - February 17, 1971, 5:26 pm - 5:53 pm, Oval Office Conversation 450-23. Look for: tape rmn_e450c.



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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11054256 -

No THIS is the reason why the US is afraid of universal health care.

Cost is really on the bottom of my concerns


Quote:
Here's some stats recently published in The Investors Business Daily (although various sources cite slight variations to these depending on the year of study, the trend is clear and consistent)

In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive their first treatment within six months. In Canada, only 43% do. And in England, only 15% do.

In the US, 77% of patients waiting to see a medical specialist are seen by one within four weeks. In Canada, 43% are, and in England 40% needing a medical specialist seen by one within four weeks.

In the US, there are 71 MRI/CT machines per million people. In Canada there are 18 per million. And in England, there are 14 per million.

In the US, the 5-year survival rate for leukemia is about 50%. In Europe, it is 35%.

In the US, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 81%. In France, it is 62%. And in England, it's 44%.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11054352 -

No shit people! I don't believe that anyone person is out to help us out in general. When is the last person that you knew(personally) that had power help out everyone that he/she has met? Not a goddamn soul!

I am not ignorant by all means, but I do believe that Obama is trying. Simply put. Might not happen, but he stands a hell of a lot better chance than that dick motherfuck Bush did.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11056165 -

buckwheat said:
No THIS is the reason why the US is afraid of universal health care.

Cost is really on the bottom of my concerns


Quote:
Here's some stats recently published in The Investors Business Daily (although various sources cite slight variations to these depending on the year of study, the trend is clear and consistent)

In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive their first treatment within six months. In Canada, only 43% do. And in England, only 15% do.

In the US, 77% of patients waiting to see a medical specialist are seen by one within four weeks. In Canada, 43% are, and in England 40% needing a medical specialist seen by one within four weeks.

In the US, there are 71 MRI/CT machines per million people. In Canada there are 18 per million. And in England, there are 14 per million.

In the US, the 5-year survival rate for leukemia is about 50%. In Europe, it is 35%.

In the US, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 81%. In France, it is 62%. And in England, it's 44%.



Im sure your not arguing to the center of the issue because your failing to describe how any of this should effect governing and policy decisions. you do bring up some interesting points about what would cause personal fear of such a system. Remember, people are only units of statistical measurement in America. Read that last sentence again.

I think whoever did those surveys needs to get their priorities straight, and execute a study that considers confounding variables if they wish to analyse such a serious issue! Consider what the results would be if you cross tabulated those results with subsections of the population in each country mentioned. (if i had an hour i would produce the data equivalents, but for now you will only get my hypothesis...) 

First off i would cross tabulate a statistical relationship to ethnic discrimination by comparing how many minority citizens received treatment within 6 months when diagnosed with diabetes, or survived prostate cancer or saw a specialist. My hypothesis is that only the USA would have a disparity within minority populations (greater than %10.)

The next thing that bothers me about this is the prostate cancer survival rate. I would like to know what the parameters were for this. What defines a prostate cancer patient? once the cancer takes over it spreads to other organs, the blood, or multiple places in the body. This means when the patient dies the cause of death becomes cancer of the ____. if diagnosed with prostate cancer before the spread, that patient would most likely be considered a "prostate cancer" respondent.

The problem with this is in the US people without regular exams (for whatever reason.. poor, laid off, no public requirement etc.)would not be diagnosed as "prostate cancer" patients. They would die with cancer all over their body and this would be considered a different ailment, therefore only some of those that were not diagnosed with "prostate cancer" would actually die from cancer in the prostate alone excluding them from the results. The fact is a random patient is vastly more likely to be diagnosed and documented in countries such as england or canada, making the survival rate more similar than this statistic want to acknowledge. 

This could be quantified by statistically proving, by country, prostate cancer survival rate among patients that received regular check ups and comparing that data to the previous survey's results; with the rule that if prostate cancer is diagnosed alone before other cancer positives, the respondent will be included. My hypothesis is that survival rate depends on early diagnosis, thus those not diagnosed before death should be considered spurious to statistical conclusions.

I know many people take "statistical evidence" such as u present for face value, and many of you will have gotten bored or confused and not read my post. All i have to say is read between the line when you attempt to analyze a presentation ment to sway your political opinion. Especially when the case is being made by a blaitantly republican biased publication such as Investors Business Daily.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11056227 -

rodfarva said:
Im sure your not arguing to the center of the issue because your failing to describe how any of this should effect governing and policy decisions.



I guess the concept of 'when government gets involved it fucks it all
up' eludes you, government shouldnt be making policy regarding my health
like the pro choice folks say 'keep you laws off my body'

Quote:
I think whoever did those surveys needs to get their priorities straight Especially when the case is being made by a blaitantly republican biased publication such as Investors Business Daily.


hahahaha... so it must be republican since it doesnt agree with your
opinion, it's the IBD, a financial publication, it's aimed at helping
the average joe with a couple of extra bucks earn more money. do you
have issues with people having money as well?

is the wall street journal a republican paper too?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11058486 -

Heres a sample of some of their political cartoons if you really want to stand by the statement
Quote:
hahahaha... so it must be republican since it doesnt agree with your
opinion, it's the IBD, a financial publication, it's aimed at helping
the average joe with a couple of extra bucks earn more money. do you
have issues with people having money as well?

is the wall street journal a republican paper too?




So you tell me, are the right wing or just anti-liberal? So i guess you would argue that fox news isn't biased because they claim to be neutral as well?

Pris you sound like a sheep. Did you have anything to say about what else i wrote?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11058524 -

rodfarva said:
So you tell me, are the right wing or just anti-liberal? So i guess you would argue that fox news isn't biased because they claim to be neutral as well?



so it's gotta be the false dichotomy, both choices are the same

I suppose MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc... arent biased since they produce about an equal content of truth just slanted the other way


Quote:
Pris you sound like a sheep. Did you have anything to say about what else i wrote?


I'm the sheep but you're parroting Obama care without looking at the
history of this government, the administration or the tools slapping
their names all over the bill... there's numerous responses in this
thread from me, I must have read something from someone, you may have
been included in the mix


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