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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Epigallo]
    #10725641 -

The extraverts whom I have witnessed on psychedelics do not introvert, become inward-looking, yogic enstasis, they extravert in typical ways, and seem to experience Infinitude as an outward projection, through the sky to the Boundlessness of outer space. Ecstasy cannot be thought of as being "shallow," as it is overwhelming of the psyche.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
    #10725752 -

Yes, and my fate is also to be less than 6 feet tall. So what? These are the psychophysical 'givens' as they say in Existentialism. Pom-pom girls never chased after me, I was never gonna be on the high school football team or labelled a jock or own a varsity jacket, or belong to the 'Ralph Club' (named after the alleged sound 'ralph' one made when they retched up beer).

Neither did I age before my time, spend my life as a laborer, never read another book after high school or college, or become another paunchy, alcoholic, bipolar, middle-aged dullard with 2.5 ungrateful teenage kids.

I am constitutionally a Meso-Ectomorph, with a Cerebrotonic temperament, according to W. H. Sheldon. I look 15 years younger but have the enthusiasm in my interest areas of some of you 20-somethings. I have a lot of Jungian experience and 3 former Zurich-trained analysts in my experience, but as you can see, I'm not addicted to the Jungian perspective. It has its flaws and some major deficiencies, like failing to acknowledge superconsciousness as a real part of the consciousness continuum. I've read pretty much the entire Collected Works of C.G. Jung which I bought around 1980 as a set in hardcover. Synchronistically, I had just gotten a tax return of $629 and LO! The entire set plus S&H cost, yep, $629!! Like Ken Wilber, I acknowledge Jung's important contributions completely, but if I were to tag myself after another's school, I would be a Grofian. I do have this plaque over the door to my study. The words were carved in stone, literally, over Jung's rather ostentatious doorway: "Called or not called God is present."




Tell you what, pick up Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being in order to counteract Jung's deterministic stuff with some more existential perspective. I see our 'higher' centers manifesting the existential conditions of free will while the Freudian, Adlerian and Jungian psychodynamic approaches manifest the first 3 chakra psychologies respectively. Jung is transitional and has elements of both. I developed my own theoretical model based on Tibetan Buddhist psychic centers and wrote my dissertation on it in '83. I live by it. Another good remedy is something by Victor Frankl: Existential Psychotherapy or The Unconscious God for examples. I just go with the flow of my nature. I could learn some extraverted behaviors: sports, dance, singing in a church choir - but I choose not to because these things would not satisfy my social needs anyway. I'd be a sell-out doing these things just to be around more people - people who actually like these things. Plus, if they learned how I consider meditation on psychedelics to be a high point in my life, how would they process this? Not very favorably I'm sure. "To thine own self be true."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10726346 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
"To thine own self be true."


Finnally, the correct interpretation of "the truth shall set you free".

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10727730 -

The determinism is only an issue in relations to the focal point Jung places onto it.
It was all bad. As though being introverted or extraverted, to which we have no choice, is casting us a whole range of problems to which there is no escape.

I've read some of Frankl, and loved it. I found it to be incredibly hopeful and bright.
But it has been insufficient to ward off the doom and gloom of this Jungian thought.
It's a problem that I have with clinical psychology as a whole -- how can you feel empathy without internalizing the emotions you empathize with?
My professor couldn't give me an answer that resonated with me. She simply batted it off, claiming that it isn't a facade, despite the fact that I never claimed it was.

It is something that I have struggled with, feeling emotional reactions to ideas and concepts, in order to achieve not only an intellectual understanding, but also an emotional understanding. It helps when relating to others in hard times, and actually helps quite a bit when I myself fall on hard times, but I fail to separate when it might best serve me to examine things from a strictly intellectual standpoint. It seems like it should be easy enough to relearn a new way of relating, but I'm still in my youthful hayday of sucking up as much emotional depth as I can, without having to experience traumas first hand, and the motivation to cease is not there :shrug:

Quote:
I just go with the flow of my nature.


Exactly. My own nature just currently happens to be absorbing a lot of negative thought, and manifesting it in emotional ways. Letting me feel the existential vacuum that Frankl describes.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
    #10727760 -

Kickle said:
Letting me feel the existential vacuum that Frankl describes.


I felt that existential vacuum while standing in the unemployment line.

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
    #10727767 -

"how can you feel empathy without internalizing the emotions you empathize with? "

I might not be using the same definitions for those terms as you, but I would guess that the amount of empathy a person feels is related to how closely they have been affected by a "negative" situation, in addition to the importance they place on the happiness of others.

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: xFrockx]
    #10727953 -

I've always found that we can relate to emotions, merely by having experienced the range of emotions of humanity. So you needn't have been involved in a situation yourself to relate to the emotions.

I've read some interesting theories on how one can accurately detect what emotion is present.
There are of course facial cues which we are consciously aware of. Affect, tone, etc.
But there also seems to be more subtle hints of feeling that occur in empathy, that are not altogether explained by this.
I personally was drawn to an explanation using 'Mirror Neurons' as its base.
When we see the emotional response, our mirror neurons are firing our own equivalent of that emotion inside of us.
Boom, empathy.

This of course leaves the window open for interpretations of emotion. There are different degrees of "sadness" for example. The loss of a mother versus the loss of favorite toy. And through questions, you can definitely get a better sense for how deep the sadness runs, and empathize in more accurate ways.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
    #10728034 -

Kickle -
Check your PM.

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10728142 -

:ilold:

:cheers:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
    #10728386 -

Oh, by the way,
I am an INFJ

It's too bad that I judge myself about that judgment part :lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10728536 -

Hit me with some more info on Introverts, plz

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TYL3R]
    #10728569 -

My grasp on Extroverts :

Extroverts are preoccupied with the objective world meaning the things they do in their outward/social life
that makes them feel happy, accomplished or content with their reality. They don't look for happiness inside themselves, because the only happiness they've known has come from outside themselves.
So they remain empty and abandon their own goals and dreams to fulfill a lifestyle that their environment presents. They seek from their immediate environment what they believe will bring them connection, fulfillment and happiness in their lives. Their entire consciousness and reality is centered outward to the surrounding world looking for things that compel them and give direction.

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TheMushaman]
    #10731859 -

I think one can be in danger of reading too much into the introvert/extrovert divide, I'd like to see it as a continuum of a given trait or psychological tendeancy. For instance, when I was a teenager I used to go parties twice a week, do all the teenage kicks and had a new girl every couple of weeks and this was a very impulsive side I had. Now, mature, at Uni, in a relationship and work, I find myself turned into a massive introvert because the situation, circumstances and life events require me to adopt this introvert behaviour (questioning of past, present and future self).

I think if I did not have the constraints of a demanding education, or had an education in something less didactic and more 'creative', I would still be in my extroverted self. That is to say, it depends entirely on the company, amongst a company of equal standing friends or those of similar attitude I am extroverted and social, but in situations where there are different group dynamics and little continuation of interpersonal relationships with strangers. I am introverted, until I guess a few more pints later lol.

So I don't think people are extroverted or introverted, entirely, given the right life circumstances we can be one or the other. However some may have much higher tendeancies to fall into either or the other. I know of 'social butterflies' in school who have burnt out from their drinking ways and became reclusive, dim witted alcoholics afraid to go out in fear of social rejection.

Edited by sonar (07/24/09 08:44 AM)

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TYL3R]
    #10733092 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Understand_Me ; Great book. There is now a version II of which I am not familiar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifts_Differing ; This is the original, practical application of Jung's work. I worked for a Jungian analyst/academic advisor as a grad assistant. I administered and hand-scored 1000 MBTIs. Better than the Keirsey which is free at www.keirsey.com , and a different outcome, but a certified psycological test and not available on the net.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbti


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Epigallo]
    #10733240 -

bradley said:
If I understand correctly, it seems a terrible thing to develop an extroverted personality. In that thread you also said that psychedelics can't change an extrovert to an introvert. Doesn't that suck?? I mean, honestly there must be some way for a purely materialistic person to add some depth to her life. People say vegetarian diets make them feel more introverted...


Just because one extraverts, or IS an extrovert, does not mean that they are materialistic. Walt Whitman the poet, whom R. M. Bucke listed in his book Cosmic Consciousness was a grand extravert. He was not a materialist but he gloried in nature. Whitman's mystic/cosmic consciousness very much revelled in embodiment, in flesh, in sensation. Perhaps the upside of being so outer-directed instead of inner-directed is that, in that movement, one tends not to become hypochondriacal, or fearful about every ache and pain. Whitman never seemed to complain, but when he died, they found upon autopsy that his body was riddled with cancer! He was no less horrified by the outer world - the Civil War in particular.

All of 'youse guys need to stop vilifying extraverted people. They're the majority of American society. I am not one of them and neither are many of 'youse.' Some extraverts are easy to be with. Others, like the obnoxious Americans who tried to elbow me off my spot on the curb when the Queen of England suddenly stopped in her limo right in front of us, are an embarrassment to the USA.

When we gave a very extraverted female friend some 'shrooms, she kept her eyes open and kept asking us where the visions were! Lie down, close your eyes, and shut the f**k up! was what we wanted to say. The sky was truly weird that night. You could see no moon yet you could read a newspaper at midnight in Miami. This extravert finally found herself (she kept narrating) herself going out, out, out into the eerily-lit darkened sky. But...she couldn't be still. She could not be quiet and she could not keep her eyes closed. I understood her experience, having experienced my 3rd acid trip similarly, but it truly vexed my Lady who was accustomed to my quiet, and who is more introverted than I am. We all have preferences for other types based on our own typology. Most people seem to like others who are like they are. Doen't 'liking' someone usually mean that you're 'alike?'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10733741 -

Quote:
Doen't 'liking' someone usually mean that you're 'alike?'


:yesnod:

p.s. I agree, we've been giving extraverts a hard time.
How about the introverts with their paranoia and delusions of grandeur? :hehehe:


Am I understanding Jung correctly when I say, no schizophrenic will be anything but intensely introverted?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert *DELETED* [Re: Kickle]
    #10733790 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10733925 -

Why are you following me?
Don't make me use my voodoo on ya!
:ashamed:

P.S. I had a professor who was extraverted and neurotic.
How the heck does that happen? He would have me leave his office while he read my papers, just because he would get too nervous in such close proximity. Funniest guy I've ever met, but he also possessed some of the strangest mannerisms imaginable.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert *DELETED* [Re: Kickle]
    #10733944 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10733970 -

Nah, he taught my Psychology of Personality course, actually. Spending a lot of time on the very topic we're discussing now. That's the only reason I know he was both extraverted and neurotic -- he was not bashful about it.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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