Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
Re: The Fallacy of Misunderstood Fallacies [Re: learningtofly]
    #10685657 -

Ah I meant "clear cut" in that first sentence, dunno if that clears things up though. *fixed

The point is that there is plenty of discourse and many contravening subsets of formality within the realm of logic itself, so even when its application is systematic, it is arguable (and that is apparently enough) that we must consider a burden of that application. If logic is succinct in matter of form and application, can we simply ground ourselves absolutely in that utility - in other words, the central notion of pure form? What I was basically saying is no; that deriving strength from "pure form", is at most an appeal to structure for either advocates or critics; a structure which does not any longer seem to simply stand on its own. As seeming as they may be tools of process, entirely of form, are they also contained in and by themselves? This is not a simple rejection of that, or a "philosophic suicide" as Camus had it;  but rather an attempt at accepting the burdens of these applications, whatever that entails.



Quote:
http://jamesfaulconer.byu.edu/deconstr.htm

I am writing a book on community. I will work over it repeatedly until I am satisfied that I am done. But what does done mean? Doesn't it mean "say everything I want to say"? And what do I want it to say? Everything. Everything, that is, about what it means to be a community. Of course, there will be this or that minor point that I may ignore or safely overlook, but as long as something significant remains to be said about my topic or as long as the connections of important points have not been made clear, I am not done. When I am done, therefore, I have produced something that claims to say everything of importance on my topic; that I have written the book on my topic is implicit in its existence as a book, even if I insert footnotes and apologies and disclaimers to the contrary.

However, when I have finished the book and have (I hope) a publisher, what is the first thing I will do? I'll write an introduction. But introductions are odd things. If they can say what the book says, then what need is there for the book? If they can't, then what need is there for the introduction? Sometimes they are appetizers, things designed to get people to read the book (or at least to buy it). Most of the time, however, an introduction is a short version of the book, an overview. It sets the problem in context, it shows the readers how important the problem or solution is, it gives the argument in a more easily understood form. Introductions add to the book to improve it, to supplement its work.

Thus, though the book implicitly claims to say everything needed, as a supplement, the introduction says "one more thing" or "the same thing briefly," deconstructing the book's claim to completeness and self-sufficiency. In deconstructing the book, the introduction doesn't show us the irrelevance of the book. It doesn't show us that the book is meaningless. It doesn't show us that just any interpretation of the book will do. It shows us that the book claims more than it can deliver, that it has left something out though it claims to be complete. I take that to be the general meaning of the word deconstruction as Derrida has used it: not just using our words and concepts against themselves, but showing what has been left out or overlooked. In fact, better: showing that something has been left out or overlooked, that omission is structural to any text -- and that we can find those omissions in the structure of the text -- without necessarily being able to specify what has been omitted.





--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (07/16/09 11:25 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Fallacy of Misunderstood Fallacies [Re: Silversoul]
    #10685805 -

Quote:
In formal logic, it is important to know some common fallacies.  However, what is often overlooked is the fact that certain fallacies simply refer to a fallacious form of an argument that can be valid in other contexts.  I figured I'd start this thread to point out some common ones.

Appeal to Authority: Appeal to authority can be perfectly legitimate if said authority is an authority on the subject at hand.  It is only when their authority is unrelated to the subject, or when their authority is taken to be greater than it really is, that it becomes a fallacy.  For example, if I were to appeal to the authority of a highly-esteemed evolutionary biologist on the subject of evolution, it would be a valid appeal to authority.  If, on the other hand, I were to appeal to the authority of a professional athlete on that subject, it would be a fallacious appeal to authority.

Slippery Slope: The Slippery Slope fallacy is only fallacious if it assumes a sequence of events that don't necessarily follow from the original event.  If the series of events necessarily follow from the premise, such as eggs solidifying from cooking them, then it is not a fallacy.

Ad Hominem: An ad hominem argument can be legitimate in countering an appeal to authority if one can undermine the authority of the person being appealed to.

Burden of Proof: It is commonly asserted that the burden of proof is on the claimant, but many people don't see that this applies to negative claims as well as positive claims, and insist that the burden of proof is on the person challenging their negative claim, based on the assumption that the person is making a positive claim.

These are just a few.  Feel free to add some more as they occur to you.



Reminds me of this


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Fallacy of Misunderstood Fallacies [Re: Silversoul]
    #10689369 -

To sort of reiterate and present my case in a more simple and argumentative form, what I am saying is that being able to frame an argument as a fallacy (by appealing to pure form) does not necessarily make it one. A fallacy rests on the particular intention of the original argument, just as much as it has been framed as fallacious in this very particular way. To demonstrate validity the two parties must meet in a commonplace of structure.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Fallacy of Misunderstood Fallacies [Re: daytripper23]
    #10689796 -

Quote:
A fallacy rests on the particular intention of the original argument,


No, not necessarily. A fallacy is a fallacy regardless of whether the arguer intended to deceive his or her opponent or not.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Fallacy of Misunderstood Fallacies [Re: learningtofly]
    #10690091 -

er, yea I suppose it "exists" as a fallacy, as much as the imagination of the critic's does. Thats a strawman though, isn't it?

If our logic is to be deemed meaningful, a consensus of logical form must be reached before the procedure is carried out. For instance, if you reduce an idea to a particular logical form, and the person never intended it that way (specifically as an argument) then realistically, it isn't a fallacy. I would say that the phenomenon is not just the strawman who once in a while pops up; my previous meanderings in this thread were efforts to consider strawmanning by greater order than specific example, basically why its so difficult to reach a consensus of form even when we are truly cooperating. It seems that is no force of con-formity to the logic itself, so we are left only to achieve this in a manner all too human.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (07/16/09 08:31 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Philosophical Fallacies spud 3,047 16 05/13/04 02:12 AM
by Jellric
* The human fallacy RonaldFuckingPaul 697 7 03/26/08 09:21 PM
by Boots
* Common Logical Fallacies Made By Muslims (according to a Christian) *DELETED* Lakefingers 856 6 12/07/09 03:30 PM
by shivas.wisdom
* Are logical fallacies a subject for philosophical inquiry? figgusfiddus 1,150 6 09/20/07 01:49 PM
by fireworks_god
* Misunderstood.
( 1 2 all )
Fucknuckle 1,593 20 12/09/04 10:41 AM
by trendal
* The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 5,314 77 04/03/14 01:55 PM
by OrgoneConclusion
* The 'Wear you Down' Fallacy OrgoneConclusion 1,218 3 09/20/07 09:06 AM
by fireworks_god
* The Self-made Fallacy And Refutation kaichen 232 2 06/29/15 02:19 PM
by paperbackwriter

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,419 topic views. 2 members, 175 guests and 32 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 15 queries.