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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes
    #2795925 - 06/15/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

On the "Other Drugs" board, one may hear a story about someone going permanently insane from LSD and instantly dismiss it. Here, someone hears a story about prayer and healing and instantly accepts it.

Apparently the validity of the story is nowhere near as important as to whether or not it reinforces our preconceived ideas about the subject being discussed.

It sort of reminds of the OJ Simpson murder trial. Black America overwhelming thought him innocent. White America thought him guilty. The facts seem to be largely irrelevant.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineergot
MydriasicVisionary
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 685
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2795936 - 06/15/04 07:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

You've become a parody of yourself with your insistence on skepticism. Doubt is important; however, a belief system appears to be a requirement for human living.

To get to the point...... how 'bout you begin putting your beliefs out on the limb for our critique?

-ergot


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: ergot]
    #2795947 - 06/15/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

To get to the point...... how 'bout you begin putting your beliefs out on the limb for our critique?

Could you be a little more vague?

Um, OK I will try. I believe that chocolate ice cream tastes good.

Seems my 15 or so $20K challenges are somehow NOT putting it on the line.  :rolleyes:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: ergot]
    #2795957 - 06/15/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

however, a belief system appears to be a requirement for human living.

I see. Then you MUST admire the belief system of our hallowed "Drug Warriors".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineergot
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2795989 - 06/15/04 07:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
however, a belief system appears to be a requirement for human living.

I see. Then you MUST admire the belief system of our hallowed "Drug Warriors".




I never stated I admire every belief system... so why did you imply it to such an extreme that you even used the term "must" ...?

I merely stated a belief system is a requirement for human survival.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlineergot
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2795996 - 06/15/04 07:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
To get to the point...... how 'bout you begin putting your beliefs out on the limb for our critique?

Could you be a little more vague?

Um, OK I will try. I believe that chocolate ice cream tastes good.

Seems my 15 or so $20K challenges are somehow NOT putting it on the line.  :rolleyes:




I did not assume it to be vague when this forum is titled Spirituality & Philosophy...

And, your challenges are challenges to others' some what fantastical beliefs... your negation of their belief system,which does suggest some of your own beliefs, actually never fully states them.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: ergot]
    #2796012 - 06/15/04 07:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I never stated I admire every belief system... so why did you imply it to such an extreme that you even used the term "must" ...?

"Impossible to survive without one" is certainly an extreme position (and one which you did not even attempt to validate). How does an erroneous belief system help in survival?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2796017 - 06/15/04 08:02 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

sometimes hope is all people have, however unfounded it is


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlineergot
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2796025 - 06/15/04 08:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I never stated I admire every belief system... so why did you imply it to such an extreme that you even used the term "must" ...?

"Impossible to survive without one" is certainly an extreme position (and one which you did not even attempt to validate). How does an erroneous belief system help in survival?




I don't need to validate that... an individual not supported by outsiders cannot successfully survive in the wilderness or even concrete jungle without a belief system. There is no need for validation... it is self-evident.

And, you ask how can an erroneous belief system help in survival? Well, let's give an example, which as absurd as it may be, is still an example...

Michael believes bears can spontaneously combust and thus stays as far as possible from every forest and zoo. He never comes into contact with this predator and this aids his overall ability to survive... however, his reasoning is based on complete lies.

-ergot


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2796041 - 06/15/04 08:12 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

sometimes hope is all people have, however unfounded it is

The hope "That all pot-smokers actually are demon-besotted beings" is somehow helpful?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,329
Loc: On the Border
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2796234 - 06/15/04 09:33 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

You got to to cut these guys break once in a while. Most (not all) of them are still new to life and naive.......on the other hand...nah, forget about it, don't cut them a break.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2796358 - 06/15/04 10:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

You and I will get along just fine. :wink:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinegotmagog
searching fortruth andlogic...

Registered: 01/18/04
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Swami]
    #2797723 - 06/16/04 03:17 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Isn't it funny, classic and archetypical, the whole discussion here?

On one side, the old skeptic Swami, sounding wise from many years, cynical from many experiences and perhaps disappointments with the harsh reality, laughing at his young verbal opponents and their illusions.

And on the other hand the younger guys, optimistic and naive , still not gone through much suffering in life, ready to embrace ideas and believe in something, to make the world better , or at least their lives more interesting. And they are just freaked when "someone" slams their believes and laughs at them.

Well, the point for me is to keep the discussion and remain open to all arguments, regardless from whom they come, value them just on their merit.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: gotmagog]
    #2797741 - 06/16/04 03:22 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I would be careful to assume the ammount of suffering some have endured on these boards. Some people have endured more suffering than some of us can understand. Ive witnessed from the year and some i have been here. But most of the discussions here are "classical". I sometimes find it funny at the responses, now that you mention it. lol. I do see what you mean though. I think more than anything besides suffering, is the ability to see past that suffering which distinguishes this rather "architypical situation".


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What?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: gotmagog]
    #2797770 - 06/16/04 03:30 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have given people untold opportunities to demonstrate their point of view (where applicable). I have encouraged it even. Can't get more open-minded than that. No one seems willing or able to do more than talk and swap campfire stories.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinegotmagog
searching fortruth andlogic...

Registered: 01/18/04
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2797778 - 06/16/04 03:32 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, when I think of it, some people on these forums have experienced much, at an young age, but not all of them have become actually wiser from it.

It's just not the same when one is 20 or 40
(by the way i am myself in my 20's, so what I said may apply to me as well  :wink:)


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: gotmagog]
    #2797792 - 06/16/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Fair enough. I think when we can admit our mistakes is really when we can break through our habbits and really learn something. For me learning is really what gets me through things. The real trouble in trying to learn, is getting there. Really learning. Then again thats why im here, this helps me.  And i would hope it would do the same for others.  :laugh:


--------------------
What?


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: ergot]
    #2797826 - 06/16/04 03:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
And, your challenges are challenges to others' some what fantastical beliefs... your negation of their belief system,which does suggest some of your own beliefs, actually never fully states them.




So what? Are you trying to suggest that Swami somehow lacks credibility?


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: ergot]
    #2797832 - 06/16/04 04:03 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
I don't need to validate that...




Actually you do, because I can think up a thought experiment which contradicts your claim. If this person is unconscious or in a coma, they will certainly survive? Do they have a belief system?

Quote:

an individual not supported by outsiders cannot successfully survive in the wilderness or even concrete jungle without a belief system. There is no need for validation... it is self-evident.




How is this self-evident?


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: The Fallacy and Double-Standard of the Use of Anecdotes [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2797987 - 06/16/04 06:53 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It's self-evident that it CAN be helpful, not that it is, at all times, a benifical effector in a person's life.  Unless you happen to live in the magical land of fairies and unicorns, where your Fairy Godmother showers the blessings of earth on you with ticklish rabbits and rainbows for all. 

Nice rampant generalizations, Swami.  "Here, someone hears a story about prayer or healing and instantly accepts it"  Uh huh.  Yeah, sure they do.  Because, as the archetypal Skeptic (Hurray, you get capitals!) you reserve the right to be to ONLY skeptic on the board.  You're absolutely right, the rest of us are all idiotic mindless sheep.  I'd grovel if I didn't feel so damned inferior. 




Please sir...

may I touch the hem of your garment?  :eek: :love: :wink:


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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