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"Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma
    #10448564 -

So I was talking to the Amycel reps...

They sell a product with "mertect", a nasty but effective fungicide against trichoderma, etc.  I have had issues with trichoderma before, especially when trying to get over 3 flushes.  So I think I may use Trilogy.

Trilogy is from neem tree (oil) and is OMRI.  It's effective in helping to prevent trichoderma, but it's not 100% effective...nothing is, including mertect.

A 2.5 gallon container is about $60.00 and you would use about 1-2% to volume of water when bringing sub to field capacity and during dunking I assume.

I am going to order some Trilogy in two weeks and test it out.  I am also testing PG Natural from Amycel with Ps. cubensis.  PG Natural is supposed to support up to and more than 3 flushes...a good candidate for use with Trilogy. :rockon:

If anyone would like to try some PM me.  I can send some free samples out...if someone wants more than a sample PM me for a good source.

info: http://www.certisusa.com/pest_management_products/neem_derived_pest_management/trilogy_botanical_fungicide_miticide.htm


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/03/09 04:15 PM)

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Livingston]
    #10448625 -

Damn...

The Amycel rep told me it's about $60.00 from them but I found it at GrowOrgnaic for $129.00; and that's the cheapest I found!

If it's only $60.00 from Amycel I will order soon in case it goes up in price.

GrowOrganic is a great place and it has micronized gypsum and micronized agricultural lime too:
http://www.groworganic.com/item_PBT930_Trilogy_Neem_Oil_25_Gallon.html?welcome=T&theses=4865602


OH!  GrowOrganic uses a different 'version' of Trilogy it seems:

Quote:
Broad Spectrum Neem Oil Fungicide/Miticide New formulation replaces Trilogy 90EC. Although equally effective, 70EC contains less active ingredient & more emulsifier, which allows the product to be mixed in cold water and helps it resist solidification at low temperatures.


Maybe the Trilogy 90EC is $60.00 and the Trilogy 70EC is $129.00.  If that is the case than I will order from Amycel because it's cheaper, has more active ingredient and less emulsifier.  It's easy to mix it with warm water when only mixing say at most 5-20 gallons.

Hummm...???


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/03/09 04:30 PM)

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Re: [Re: Livingston]
    #10451980 -

Hi: You can use Black Leaf or Green Light neem insecticidal oil soap (neem oil insecticide, ex., it's about 70% pure neem oil with the balance being an emulsifier or the active extract azadirachtin in a carrier solution so that they can be mixed with water to make a spray, ex.) that can be found at Walmart or Target, ex. It's the same thing as Trilogy that's just repackaged for resell. Mix and use per direction's on the label, using it to dampen the top of the casting and other exposed areas only (meaning not to use it as a drench). It works by interfering with the formation of chitin that's used in the making of the outer walls of the mycelium. This will have little effect on the mycelium pin knots when pin setting if used to just dampen the top of the casing, ex. after a flush is over, but before the next pin set. It will help to stop cobweb and trichoderma that might want to start on the surface areas of the beds.

The exoskeleton of insects is also made of chitin and neem oil interferes with insects being able to molt. There by killing them over time because they can not form a new exoskeleton as they grow and try to molt.

Amycel, Monterrey Chemical and Monterrey Mushroom Farms are all the same company there in the northern Monterrey area of the west cost.  Dr Qi


--------------------
In life there are few words and witticisms that I may use when writing that have not been said or written in the past. So there is little that's unique to my writings. I do borrow and use ideas and information from published authors without making any claim that its original work done by myself. Just the best information that I have available at the time when writing, as the most I can do is to search for the truth and wisdom when writing.

May you learn to know yourself and live life happy, joyous and free; Dr Q'i

Edited by Dr Qi (06/04/09 11:26 AM)

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Dr Qi]
    #10454782 -

Hi,

Great info thanks!  I was unaware neem oil worked via chitin.  I'm glad you told me that because I was (and still will) test with it in bulk sub.  However, the Amycel reps sell it as an additive to bulk subs and casing layers.  It's a replacement for Mertect which is also used in the sub.  The Mertect is in a amendment from Amycel used as SaS.

But like you said myelcium uses chitin to help form cell walls and a major source for the chitin (and protein) is from microbes the mycelium 'digests'.  That could really hinder mycelial growth...hummm...definitely useful for casing layer...

I have been doing further research too and I think you may have some info mixed up.  Or I do...Trilogy has no Azadirachtin.


I thought about using other neem oil like "Einstein Oil" (cold processed) but it contains Azadirachtin.  Maybe it's the absense of Azadirachtin that makes Trilogy good for bulk subs?

Trilogy MSDS: http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp25F004.pdf

Einstein Oil MSDS: http://www.n-g-w.com/ngw/literature/einstein_oil.pdf



These quotes are from the MFS for neem oils:
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/resourceguide/mfs/08neem.php

Quote:
Azadirachtin-based products

Includes Agroneem®, AZA-Direct®, Azatrol®, Ecosense®, Ecoside® (has both oil and azadiractin), Neemix®.




Quote:
Neem oil products

Trilogy® (also packaged as Triact, Green Light Neem Concentrate, and Green Light Rose Defense) is neem oil that has had the azadirachtin and at least some other components separated from it. It is called “clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil”. 100% cold pressed neem oil is also being sold as a “plant wash,” but has no pesticide label.




Quote:
Neem oil soap products

Organica® K+ Neem is derived from neem oil that is saponified to create potassium salts of fatty acids, which are considered to be soap. It also contains 75% inert ingredients.



EDIT:

Did you mean I can by Green Light at Wallmart, Lowes, HD, etc?  That would be great.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/04/09 03:49 PM)

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Livingston]
    #10455412 -

Livingston said:
Hi,

  However, the Amycel reps sell it as an additive to bulk subs and casing layers.  It's a replacement for Mertect which is also used in the sub.  The Mertect is in a amendment from Amycel used as SaS.

Did you mean I can by Green Light at Wallmart, Lowes, HD, etc?  That would be great.


Hi: If the Amycel reps told you that they are fucking with you. I'm sure they're getting inquires from people all the time and they have a good idea what the information going to be used for. Mertect is one of the fungicides approved for use in mushroom farming to control trichoderma by the Dept. of Agriculture that can be used on spawn or Spawnmate as a dust before bedding, but may carry a legal liability from its use.

Yes it's the some thing just repackaged for resell.  Dr Qi


--------------------
In life there are few words and witticisms that I may use when writing that have not been said or written in the past. So there is little that's unique to my writings. I do borrow and use ideas and information from published authors without making any claim that its original work done by myself. Just the best information that I have available at the time when writing, as the most I can do is to search for the truth and wisdom when writing.

May you learn to know yourself and live life happy, joyous and free; Dr Q'i

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Dr Qi]
    #10456346 -

Banrot 40 WP was also approved for mushroom farms a few years ago when I tested it, and it does prevent conidial fungi spores from germinating, but doesn't impede live mushroom mycelium. It's toxic shit though. 

However, proper pasteurization gets you through two flushes, and 80% or more of the total possible product will be delivered in the first two flushes anyway.  In my experience, the fruiting area real estate is put to better use by replacing post second flush substrates with new ones.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10457931 -

Hi: I think that Roger Rabbit has most excellently said it all when it comes to most of us. But a commercial grower has to get as much produce per cubit foot of substrate as they can to make a profit. Trichoderma can be real big set back to a grower and can cause them the loss of a whole mushroom house of crop plus the cost to have it gassed with chlorine dioxide to kill off the trichoderma spores that are left in it. Using some thing to help control trichoderma makes good sense under those circumstance's.

Most of the fungicides approved by the US Dept. of Agriculture for use in mushroom farms work fine at lower rates of use assigned them in that application. But at higher rates of application are used to control fairy rings (mushrooms) in turf grass, like on golf courses, ex., There use is better left to state licensed applicator's who are trained in using them as most are toxic in one way or an other. Using neem oil is a way of putting a happy face on this (hay man its a natural produce) and has its own risks to.  Dr Qi

Edited by Dr Qi (06/05/09 06:17 AM)

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Re: [Re: Dr Qi]
    #10465518 -

Hey guys,

@ RR,
yea I agree.  It's funny because I was waiting for you to post something like "use hydrated lime" or "just pasteurize".  I totally agree that they work just fine for 2-3 flushes. 

I don't have problems with Trichoderma spp. but I do not generally use a casing layer either.  When I do use a casing layer I have had issues with Trichoderma spp. on occasion.  So I wanted to find an OMRI alternative to the fungicides I have seen discussed at the shroomery.  One less thing to be overly concerned about (Trichoderma spp.) is good IMO. 

I want to run side-by-side casing and non-casing up to around >4 flushes.  I'm using Amycel "PG Natural" this time in my bulk so my flushes should keep producing well into the 3rd-4th flush if I can keep the pins in good shape for those future flushes.  It seems a limiting factor to heavy 3rd and 4th flush yields is the destruction of the sub or casing preventing pins from forming/growing.

Being that growing P.cubensis is illegal I like to get all I can out of as little as I can...


@ Dr. Qi
(nice nick BTW, I practice Qi Gung and Tai Chi, along with combat as Hawaiian Kenpo; aka 'real' Kajukenbo)

You were right, the Amcyel rep I was speaking with was fuc*ing with me...though not on purpose.  I think she just didn't explain herself well.  I called Amcyel again and spoke to a rep who gave me a phone number of someone who specialized in Trilogy (I assume).  This woman I spoke with said basically the same thing as you:

1. Ideally apply Trilogy to casing layer when applying the casing layer, before the first flush.

2. If there is a big contamination problem (not just Trichoderma spp.) then application immediately after each flush harvest will help.  Spraying it on the casing layer post first flush is how she suggested to use it if applying post first flush. But she said if one does not need to apply it between flushes then it's best not to apply it that way (before the first flush is best from what she was saying).

Thanks guys! :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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Re: [Re: Livingston]
    #10481662 -

" I like to get all I can out of as little as I can..."

I totally agree with you here, but I think like this... Cow Poo verm and all the supplies are available all over the place, sometimes seems practically free after awhile. Spores, well after the first flush, ur set for life, if not, a damn long time. The REAL LIMITING factor here is SPACE and TIME. You have to grow indoor for the most part, being illegal. So if you already had a good cycle going, which takes active work and maintenance by you, then you could throw out the old and in with the new.

What your trying to do is stretch the amount of shrooms you receive against the amount work, love, and attention you give. You get what you give, remember that. There are MANY hours in the day. Use em.

Why wait for those last flushes, which are usually crappy in experience, strain may be major factor, when you can throw in fresh ready to go myc.I like to have two rooms, a colonizing/ pinning room, then a fruiting room/harvesting room (used mono tubs). Well im not growing shrooms at the moment but when I was a few years ago, I like always had shrooms. And the old myc I would throw in a shady grassy area of my yard. That was usually my personal area, cuz they were like totally free to me. Eventually became a hole with a bunch of old sub that kept getting bigger, you would see the diff strains growing. The weak ones would grow smaller and smaller till only the B+ was left. those fuckers.


--------------------
Every thing I type is a figment of my skitso dreams, I have never actually done any of the things I may type about, nor will I ever do them.

I don't remember when it was that I fell asleep. It must of been long long ago. I don't remember for what time I set my alarm clock, I'm not sure how long I've been dreaming now. But I guess thats whats important, that I am dreaming. I think I want to wake up, but I am never sure. I just hope I will remember this dream when I do, I just hope I will remember who I was, this little bug on earth.

Known as "can_a_bus_dream" at http://futurehi.net/index.html

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Re: [Re: Mr_Spliff420]
    #10482784 -

Mr_Spliff420 said:
What your trying to do is stretch the amount of shrooms you receive against the amount work, love, and attention you give. You get what you give, remember that. There are MANY hours in the day. Use em.


Thanks for your insight but no.  Trust me, I spend many more hours a day in this hobby than probably 95% of the people here.

I am interested in using Trilogy because it's another tool in the arsenal, not because I'm lazy, :shrug:

What I'm trying to do is get the most bang for the buck as they say.  OTOH, using Trilogy when casing as a standard seems wise especially because Trichoderma spp. can ruin the grow very fast. 

Most new people here have issues with Trichioderma spp. so I was thinking I will test it and then post in Cult.  You can get it a Walmart as Greenlight as the Dr. suggested.


Quote:
Why wait for those last flushes, which are usually crappy in experience, strain may be major factor, when you can throw in fresh ready to go myc.


Because I want to, simple as that.


Quote:
I like to have two rooms, a colonizing/ pinning room, then a fruiting room/harvesting room (used mono tubs).


I have more than few greenhouse I grow in, so if one has Trichoderma spp. and I don't notice for a day or two then the whole greenhouse can be ruined...possibly spreading to the other greenhouses.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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Re: [Re: Livingston]
    #10485030 -

Rhododendron leaves are a natural fungicide.  I've used them at up to ten percent by volume of the casing material and had no trich, cobweb or any other contaminant.  However, I have no idea of the toxicity or if any of it is admitted into the fruits.

Copper is also a natural fungicide.  I did a flush or two laying pennies all over the casing layer and also got no trich.  However, pennies are only copper plated these days and are mostly zinc, which I'm not so sure about having my mycelium exposed to.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10488548 -

Hey,

Cool thanks a lot for that :smile:  I am going to research the use of Rhododendron leaves with fungi.  I love it that you so freely experiment.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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Re: [Re: Livingston]
    #10500031 -

Hey again,

I created a PDF from the flyer on info for Trilogy from Amycel, I asked for it with my order of PG Natural: (it's too big to upload here)

http://filesurf.ru/127003


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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Re: [Re: Livingston]
    #10507114 -

Why is it on a Russian server?  I avoid those links like the plague.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10510556 -

Hey,

It's on a Russian server because I don't trust the US government and Russia is offshore.  I don't want my IP address linked to a file for the shroomery on a US based upload site...they are all rats and I don't trust them with my IP.  That server is fine and you will get no malware or anything; that server is commonly used by most up loaders who also fear US Patriot Act.  However, many US based upload sites do have WAY to much Flash, Java-script and CGI...blaaah!

I tried to upload it here but it's one bit too big.  If you have a upload server you prefer I can put it there, one offshore to the US is what I prefer. 

Or wait, I'll compress it and upload it here.  I would have done that before but I wasn't only my computer when I first uploaded it.  Give me a few minutes and I'll put it here for you. :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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"Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Livingston]
    #10510686 -
Log in to view attachment

Here ya go my friend

I created a zip archive with 7zip using AES-256 encryption.  To decrypt use the passphrase "RogerRabbit" :smile:

Let me know if it works


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/15/09 01:56 PM)

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Livingston]
    #10532220 -

Hey man I'll take a free sample :smile: I just dont want to burn my eyes out, become sterile myself, or grow a tail!


--------------------
Proud to be a member of the Feel Family.

My Logs:
BRF Trial 1
First Mono Tub
Quadruple Mono Tub Grow
My Last Tub

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: ezwider]
    #10537842 -

Hi,

I ordered a liter from Amazon for $13.00.  I don't have enough to share.  But it's so cheap you should get some and try it too! :smile:  I bought "Green Light".


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/19/09 03:45 PM)

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: Livingston]
    #10538588 -

Well until I get some, make sure you let us all know, especially me, how it works out for you.  THEN ill grab some.


--------------------
Proud to be a member of the Feel Family.

My Logs:
BRF Trial 1
First Mono Tub
Quadruple Mono Tub Grow
My Last Tub

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Re: "Trilogy": OMRI fungicide to help prevent trichoderma [Re: ezwider]
    #10542815 -

Cool.

I'll let you know in a couple of weeks.  I am going to *not* pasteurize the casing layer for one bulk tub and fruit it away from my greenhouses in a shotgun tub.  I am going to use 50/50+ mix with Trilogy (aka Green Light)...well see how well it works on an unpasteurized casing :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

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