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The Hitchens Challenge
    #10376927 -

In his introduction to the new book "The Portable Atheist," Christopher Hitchens issues his now-familiar challenge to theists: "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer."

Any takers?


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10376962 -

These little challenges always amuse me. It's like an equal rights movement.

I'm just as good as a theist!!!


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Kickle]
    #10377019 -

Nope. I don't see belief having a monopoly over ethical actions. What belief does is provide justification for the actions, as the actors see their actions as obedience to an objective morality. I imagine those who aren't believers don't subscribe to an objective morality, they may choose to act the way they do for a number of reasons. First and most obvious would be: because they want to. Other reasons might be that they feel one should obey laws as they provide society with stability. I'm sure you could name other reasons as well.

Then again there are also believers who believe God simply created the Universe and now has nothing to do with it. I'd imagine that would leave little room for objective morality as well. Then there are those who believe the universe is God, so I would imagine any action wouldn't need justification, therefore ethics would be nonsensical. Regardless of who we're identifying as believers though, I still don't think they/we have a monopoly over morality, so I agree with Hitchens.

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Kickle]
    #10377025 -

And here is the flipside:

Try to think of immoral acts supported by religious theology (I dare not even call this a challenge)


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Sventington]
    #10377066 -

Objective morality is obviously tough to achieve.

But, here is a start: strive for happiness and pleasure for all, avoid pain and suffering for all.

It's tricky because different things make different people happy or sad. But there are some pretty large consistencies. For example, most people love their families and most people don't appreciate having their body parts mutilated.

Also, most people like to eat once in a while. And this kind of basic need should have a high priority.

Prioritization of whose happiness by what means is very important thing to examine.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10378953 -

GhengisKhan said:
Objective morality is obviously tough to achieve.

But, here is a start: strive for happiness and pleasure for all, avoid pain and suffering for all.

It's tricky because different things make different people happy or sad. But there are some pretty large consistencies. For example, most people love their families and most people don't appreciate having their body parts mutilated.

Also, most people like to eat once in a while. And this kind of basic need should have a high priority.

Prioritization of whose happiness by what means is very important thing to examine.


Good post.  Yes, the answer depends on what you call morality.  If by morality we mean "what is good?" then one could say that following the first commandment beats Hitchen's Challenge nicely.

Long ago Plato gave evidence for a morality that had nothing to do with religion.  We start with desiring what is good for us and build from there.  I've often considered using Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to build it.


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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10378983 -

Considering what an enthusiastic cheerleader Hitchens has been for the Iraq War, I'm not sure I'd trust him to be a good judge of what is ethical.


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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10379008 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
GhengisKhan said:
Objective morality is obviously tough to achieve.

But, here is a start: strive for happiness and pleasure for all, avoid pain and suffering for all.

It's tricky because different things make different people happy or sad. But there are some pretty large consistencies. For example, most people love their families and most people don't appreciate having their body parts mutilated.

Also, most people like to eat once in a while. And this kind of basic need should have a high priority.

Prioritization of whose happiness by what means is very important thing to examine.


Good post.  Yes, the answer depends on what you call morality.  If by morality we mean "what is good?" then one could say that following the first commandment beats Hitchen's Challenge nicely.

Long ago Plato gave evidence for a morality that had nothing to do with religion.  We start with desiring what is good for us and build from there.  I've often considered using Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to build it.


I would argue that first commandment has nothing to do with morality or goodness. But Maslow's Heirarchy, or something like it is important I think.

I would say that religion should be considered zero percent in an discussion of morality. Religion deals with morality, but it recruits it, not invents it. It sometimes stresses things that are moral, sometimes things that are amoral, and sometimes things that are immoral. But the moral things are moral, religion or not.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10379021 -

I understand what you're saying but some religionists argue that morality cannot be found without a source.  I understand what they mean but they are wrong.  And you, in this case, in my opinion, are correct.


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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #10379026 -

Silversoul said:
Considering what an enthusiastic cheerleader Hitchens has been for the Iraq War, I'm not sure I'd trust him to be a good judge of what is ethical.


How is his challenge related to his political beliefs?


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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10379099 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Silversoul said:
Considering what an enthusiastic cheerleader Hitchens has been for the Iraq War, I'm not sure I'd trust him to be a good judge of what is ethical.


How is his challenge related to his political beliefs?


It gives a good indication of what he considers "ethical."


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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #10379110 -

I feel you on that one. He is not my favorite in terms of political ideals.

But he is my homeboy when it comes to the issue of religion, and his ability to debate is uncanny.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: The Hitchens Challenge [Re: Silversoul]
    #10379124 -

Silversoul said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Silversoul said:
Considering what an enthusiastic cheerleader Hitchens has been for the Iraq War, I'm not sure I'd trust him to be a good judge of what is ethical.


How is his challenge related to his political beliefs?


It gives a good indication of what he considers "ethical."


He is against tyrannical and totalitarian regimes. His ideals I'm not sure are wrong, just his means and his priorities perhaps.


--------------------
"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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