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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10148492 -

> it is obvious that they did not have nuclear weapons at that time.

How is it obvious?  The only thing obvious is that they had not yet tested a nuclear weapon at that time.

> If it's demonstratable that they did not stop work on developing a nuclear weapon during the period from 1994 to 2001 why haven't you demonstrated that.

It is no more possible to show that they did not stop work than to show that they continued work.  Believe what you want.  I have my own reasons for what I believe, but I can't go into specifics.  However, if you want a hint, look at uranium enrichment rather than plutonium production.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Seuss]
    #10148513 -

like I said without doing a test you do not know if you've created a successful bomb. Believe it or not you do make a few duds in the process. In fact tha length of time between their statement and a successful underground test proves that they did not have a bomb.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10148743 -

> Believe it or not you do make a few duds in the process.

Only one country that has tested nuclear weapons has ever had a dud on their first test, and that country was North Korea.

> In fact tha length of time between their statement and a successful underground test proves that they did not have a bomb.

They have not had a successful underground test, unless you somehow figure that a failed detonation is somehow a success.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Seuss]
    #10148792 -

I was under the impression that the explosion was on the order of 50 megatonnes. What exactly do you mean failed detonation?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10148841 -

Yeah, that would be one of the biggest bombs of all time.


The figures I've seen have been in the single to low double digit kT range.  A firecracker will explode too, but throwing some uranium in it wouldn't make it a succesful nuclear test.


Either way, I do wonder about the effect of Bush's rhetoric on the situation.  I've heard allegations that the administration bascially brushed off N. Korea's willingness to engage in talks over ending their programs.  I'd be interested to know if this is true and what the effect of this was.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10148845 -

> What exactly do you mean failed detonation?

Failed.  As in it didn't work.  As in fizzle yield.  As in your impression of 50 megatons is wrong.  The largest nuclear bomb ever detonated by any country was just over 50 megatons.  The bomb detonated by North Korea was a dud (known as a fizzle) that produced less than 1 kiloton.  North Korea's 1-KT bomb might have taken down a large building (city block).  Russia's 50-MT bomb would have taken out a small country.

> The figures I've seen have been in the single to low double digit kT range.

Nope, much smaller than that.  More than 500 tons, but less than 1000 tons.  In the scale of nuclear weapons, it was insignificant.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Seuss]
    #10149127 -

true I looked it up on Google real fast and I'm assuming I got a bad report, as always you might as well wikipedia it first.

This does make the situation less imminent. However I fail to see how this would support zappa's claim that they had not stopped the weapons program while they were under an agreement not to. Given their failure to produce a nuclear device it would stand to reason that they likely weren't working on it in any serious capacity during the time when they said they weren't.

Given that there were no weapons inspectors in NK I'll assume zappa has no proof and is full of shit when he says NK was still doing nuclear weapons development during the time that he states they were.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10149206 -

I don't think they ever stopped because it isn't something you can turn on or off like a light switch.  Look at Iran's efforts.  They've been at it for over a decade and still aren't there.  It's not that easy for these idiots to do.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10149493 -

Iran isn't as concerned with reaching that goal as they let on though, as I mentioned earlier in this thread Iran gets popularity with it's religious base by perusing nukes. However the next step if they actually had them would be to nuke Israel. Though there is political willingness to develop them for the popularity the return on this policy is quashed by actually developing them. That is why Iran will fuck the dog on it's nuke program and hype it to their people. It's the same way conservatives republicans hype issues that the religious-right cares about then makes little effort to actually commit to their values. It's the same deal except that Iran can end the benefits it receives from pandering to their religious fanatics by actually succeeding in their goal. But the hype and posturing is always helpfully in rallying them to their cause as well as appearances of the work.

North Korea however is different, there is (arguably) no need for public support in order to keep the government in power and public support is enforced by punishment of death or excommunication (to the NK "gulag") anyway. There is no real telling how much resources are needed for NK to do it's work or how much of them they receive. I could be right that NK has had more than enough time to get where they are or you could be right that they would not have reached this level of advancement without working through that time. The difference is that you declared your opinion as fact, backed your argument with a cite that didn't prove your claim that the weapons program was continued secretly during the Clinton-Albrecht treaty. It actually said nothing about the treaty or the history of NK's weapons program. You said:
Quote:
YOU can believe they stopped their program if you want.  I think it's pretty clear, based on demonstrable and/or self-re-ported results, they didn't.


Where are these demonstratable self-reported results?
I on the other hand purported my position to be my opinion. Frankly I can't really know because I have no idea how much resources were devoted to the project over how long. I assume that NK's financial records for military development budgets are relatively hard to access. That's why when I talked about it I said shit like:
Quote:
Given the timeline and the devotion of NK's economy to these sorts of tasks I seriously think that it's likely that NK did stop it's program for at least a good portion of the time after 1994. Actually the timeline makes sense if NK was good to it's word on treaties.


The only difference here is that I admit quite openly that I am speculating while you seem to be just taking notes from Phred.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10149656 -

What I've gathered from this thread is that while Clinton was in power, NK signed an agreement that they would halt their nuclear weapons program, but when Bush was in power NK declared that they were restarting the program. And Bush did nothing to stop them.

Even if NK didn't stop their program, it's clear that Clinton did far more than Bush. All Bush did was call them 'evil' then promptly ignored them for the rest of his term. Fail.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10149665 -

ScavengerType said:
I could be right that NK has had more than enough time to get where they are or you could be right that they would not have reached this level of advancement without working through that time. The difference is that you declared your opinion as fact


Exactly.  It is a fact that North Korea worked on its nuclear program very shortly after Bush came into office.  We don't know if they worked on them after the Clinton agreements, although the evidence (weapons inspectors) said North Korea was in compliance with their end of the agreement.  Believe what you want, but don't pretend to know what happened.  You hate democrats, so of course you'll blame them without factual evidence.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10149697 -

>You hate democrats, so of course you'll blame them without factual evidence.

That's quite unlike ScavengerType.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10149741 -

That's simply not true I will blame them for some things without evidence. Just not this.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10149763 -

He's responding to zap while quoting Scavenger for support.

Ron Paul's announcement on the NK rocket launch.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Disco Cat]
    #10149773 -

>He's responding to zap while quoting Scavenger for support.

Ah yes, I see that now.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10149829 -

I dissagree with Ron Paul, he doesn't acknowledge that North Korea is at war with the US. In North Korea they still are making and running war propaganda, the country has been in a 55 year limbo since the major borders had been set. I'm usually quite anti-war but when it comes to north Korea I think the US and/or the international community should seriously consider it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10150352 -

zouden said:
>He's responding to zap while quoting Scavenger for support.

Ah yes, I see that now.


That's right.  Sorry for the confusion.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10150710 -

Quote:
Even if NK didn't stop their program, it's clear that Clinton did far more than Bush. All Bush did was call them 'evil' then promptly ignored them for the rest of his term. Fail.


Bush got them to disable their plutonium production capability in a verifiable manner.  Clinton got them to sign an agreement.  Neither did anything with respect to their clandestine uranium enrichment program.  Spin it how you like.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Seuss]
    #10151419 -

Seuss said:
Bush got them to disable their plutonium production capability in a verifiable manner.


Yeah.  LOL.  They just crapped out the stuff they put in that dud bomb of theirs.  Old Kim just ate Taco Bell for three days straight and pooped out a bunch of plutonium.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10151423 -

zappaisgod said:
I don't think they ever stopped because it isn't something you can turn on or off like a light switch.  Look at Iran's efforts.  They've been at it for over a decade and still aren't there.  It's not that easy for these idiots to do.



Or they aren't actually trying to make a bomb.  One or the other.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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