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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Twirling]
    #10106348 -

Twirling said:
Phred said:
And there were connections, as Time, Newsweek, the NY TImes and the 9/11 Committee pointed out.


Twirling said:
And why can't you produce any links to them?


So far, I've seen one example of someone who had al-Qaeda connections, and I've shown that he was actually arrested by Saddam Hussein when Phred was claiming he was given shelter. I've yet to see anymore examples, just that various newspapers/magazines/9/11 Committee said that there were.

The lack of evidence supplied means that Phred has to drop this original claim. Or he could provide some links and we can take it from there. So far, it's been, "take my word for it", and the little that was supplied turned out to be wrong.



I can only assume from the lack of a follow up that Phred is conceding and retracting his point about Iraq supporting al-Qaeda. He's replied to multiple other posts so he's had ample time to see and reply to this. So far, his biggest proof for this claim is that various magazines & newspapers said it was true. Sorry, but "take my word for it" is not high enough proof to make an argument off of.

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Twirling]
    #10106461 -

And I have told you I am not interested in providing all those same links again. This has been done to death years ago. It was done again when the 9/11 Commission released its report, and probably a few times since. You have all the tools to find those threads in this forum - it's not like they're hidden or anything.

I realize it's not your fault you're late to the party, but it's not my fault either. Oh.... wait a minute.... I see by your post history that you were actually active in the Political Discussion forum at the exact same time all this was being thrashed out in great detail! So what's the reason for your memory lapse?




Phred


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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10106488 -

Phred said:
And I have told you I am not interested in providing all those same links again. This has been done to death years ago.


No it hasn't.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: TGRR]
    #10106534 -

Actually, yes it has. All this stuff has been done to death years ago.

It is one thing to ask someone to support his argument the first time it is made. Or even the second time, if it was lightly covered in the first discussion and then never popped up again till a few years down the road. But the question of Hussein's links to terrorists has been covered thoroughly on dozens of occasions, and not just by me. When the 9/11 Commission issued its report, that was the end of it. There were a few die-hards who kept trying to bluster that the Commission had fabricated evidence out of thin air, but they got shut down pretty quick, seeing as how the majority of the Commission's references were to open-source documents, i.e. the reporting of media players such as ABC and CNN and Time and Newsweek and the New York Times, who had been detailing Hussein's involvement with terrorists all the way back to when Clinton won the 1992 election. Hell, some of the articles may have even been before he won... I honestly can't remember now.

Did Hussein's minions offer any kind of support to the crew which planned and carried out the 9/11 attacks? I don't know. It doesn't matter whether he did or not, since that crew wasn't the only group of terrorists operating in the world, and it is undeniable Hussein was helping out several others.

To try to deny this was the case is just nuts, and would be a source of vast amusement if it weren't so troubling to realize there are still people - after all these years - who won't acknowledge reality.





Phred


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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: TGRR]
    #10106576 -

TGRR said:
Phred said:
And I have told you I am not interested in providing all those same links again. This has been done to death years ago.


No it hasn't.


Evidently the mystery links do not exist or they would have been provided by now.

I was here at the time of the debate and there was no such thread I am aware of. There were furious attempts to make that link but none were even remotely successful.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: zorbman]
    #10106649 -

So sorry, but there have been several such threads. Dozens by now, probably. The fact that you were here at the time they were made and undoubtedly read them makes your dishonesty even more appalling.




Phred


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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10106783 -

You'll have to do better than that. :grin:

I am afraid you are going to have to put up or shut up, Phreddy.

I repeat. There were no such threads I am aware of and I was here for most of those debates. If I am mistaken and these threads are as numerous as you say they are then you should have no trouble whatsoever finding one to back your unsupported claim and make your detractors shut up once and for all.

For now I can only conclude these links do not exist outside your fertile imagination.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: zorbman]
    #10106844 -

Are you familiar with a feature here on The Shroomery called "Similar Threads"?





Phred


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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10106987 -

Why not just link to one and get those whiners off your back?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10107065 -

Are you familiar with the concept that the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10107204 -

Phred said:
Actually, yes it has. All this stuff has been done to death years ago.




Actually, I kinda doubt that, considering even the Bush administration backed off of that claim.  You, on the other hand, make these claims, then dismiss any demands for links with spurious claims to prior victory.  Kinda laughable, dude.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10107218 -

Phred said:
So sorry, but there have been several such threads. Dozens by now, probably. The fact that you were here at the time they were made and undoubtedly read them makes your dishonesty even more appalling.




Phred



I'm starting to see a pattern, Phred.  Tell me when I lose the plot:

1.  You make hilarious claims.

2.  Someone asks for a link.

3.  You state that "this was all over and done with years ago".

4.  Everyone laughs at you.

5.  You call them dishonest, or threaten their posting privileges (Well, to be honest, I've only seen the latter once, but it was done to me, so I include it).  No link is provided (presumably because no such link exists).


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Yrat]
    #10107441 -

Phred said:
And I have told you I am not interested in providing all those same links again. This has been done to death years ago. It was done again when the 9/11 Commission released its report, and probably a few times since. You have all the tools to find those threads in this forum - it's not like they're hidden or anything.


I told you that I made numerous attempts at searching for said threads with no avail. If these threads are so readily available, and so convincing, then all you have to do is do a search yourself and link to the thread.

You are asking me to take this on assumption, yet, so far, the examples you gave either had nothing to do with al-Qaeda, or in fact, demonstrated that Hussein arrested the guy you claimed he was sheltering. Given these poor examples, expecting me to accept them on faith is absurd. You are making claims that you can not back up, while also requiring those who disagree with you to go to great lengths to prove their case. This is a huge double-standard.

Quote:
Phred said:I realize it's not your fault you're late to the party, but it's not my fault either. Oh.... wait a minute.... I see by your post history that you were actually active in the Political Discussion forum at the exact same time all this was being thrashed out in great detail! So what's the reason for your memory lapse?


Apparently, unlike you, I've kept up on information that has come out since then which has shown that the sources of information that Bush administration used to build their case for war to be fraudulent, from sources that the intelligence community knew to be sketchy, or worse yet, extracted by means of torture (which has proven to be unreliable). The vast majority of the early information that was in the media around the time of the war, turned out to be false, so this requires a bit more proof then, "I read it in Time magazine".


The problem here is that Phred is arguing from a requirement that we all agree on the facts, and that if one disagrees with the facts, they just haven't done the work to find them out. I am challenging you to back up a major claim that Iraq aided al-Qaeda as well as providing them with chemical weapons knowledge. Without demonstrating that, what we have to go with is that Bush & co, in fact, used sketchy information to erroneously tie Iraq to al-Qaeda, and by extension, tying Iraq to 9/11. This is my position, and without actual proof that these claims were true, you can't really sink that argument (the excuse of "everyone thought the intelligence was true is not acceptable because most foreign intelligence agencies knew the sources to be sketchy, such as Germany's distrust of "Agent Curveball").

This does not mean they claimed that Iraq was responsible for 9/11, but rather that the administration used the fear the was caused by 9/11 as a justification to go with war with Iraq. I don't know many people who even deny this, and I talk to people from all across the spectrum. Even the die hard Bush-lovers admit this when I talk to them. But Phred is disputing this, which is fine. What is not fine is the lack of evidence presented to support his claim.

You are expecting the people you've "challenged" to provide examples. I provided examples of how the Bush administration made comments which falsely link Iraq & al-Qaeda as a method of shifting blame onto Iraq. As a defense against that argument, you have stated that the allegations were true. I have provided a few examples to back up my case that the connections had no merit. The ONE example you gave me of an al-Qaeda member actually HURT the case for your position. The other two guys you mentioned had nothing to do with al-Qaeda, and one of them was arrested and killed by Saddam Hussein. To use these as examples of connections severely hurts your credibility. It means you didn't do your homework, and you're still refusing to do it while shifting the blame onto me.

Considering that the ONE example you've given me turned out to be the exact opposite of what you claimed, expecting me to take this on faith is unacceptable. And the notion that I have a lapse in memory is nothing more than a defensive mechanism. These are just excuses and attempts to shift the blame on me.

No more excuses. Either back up your claims or admit that you're wrong.

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: zorbman]
    #10108116 -

Quote:
Are you familiar with the concept that the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim?


Which is what MAIA (and everyone else) has failed to do.





Phred


--------------------

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: TGRR]
    #10108123 -

Quote:
Actually, I kinda doubt that, considering even the Bush administration backed off of that claim.  You, on the other hand, make these claims, then dismiss any demands for links with spurious claims to prior victory.  Kinda laughable, dude.


No, the Bush administration never backed down on the fact that Hussein aided and abetted terrorists. Why should they, seeing as how Hussein aided and abetted terrorists?




Phred


--------------------

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: TGRR]
    #10108128 -

Quote:
I'm starting to see a pattern, Phred.  Tell me when I lose the plot:

1.  You make hilarious claims.

2.  Someone asks for a link.

3.  You state that "this was all over and done with years ago".

4.  Everyone laughs at you.

5.  You call them dishonest, or threaten their posting privileges (Well, to be honest, I've only seen the latter once, but it was done to me, so I include it).  No link is provided (presumably because no such link exists).


And I ask you as well... are you familiar with the feature Ythan provided to this bulletin board called "Similar Posts"?




Phred


--------------------

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10108156 -

Phred said:
Quote:
Are you familiar with the concept that the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim?


Which is what MAIA (and everyone else) has failed to do.


Phred


Of course I was referring to YOU and your unsupported claim, Phreddy.

So much for honesty. You have utterly failed to provide those links after repeated requests.

There's a very good reason for that.

THEY DON'T EXIST.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Twirling]
    #10108258 -

Quote:
I told you that I made numerous attempts at searching for said threads with no avail. If these threads are so readily available, and so convincing, then all you have to do is do a search yourself and link to the thread.


There's a reason Ythan went to the trouble of coding up a feature unique to The Shroomery he calls "Similar Posts". Are you familiar with it?

Quote:
You are asking me to take this on assumption, yet, so far, the examples you gave either had nothing to do with al-Qaeda, or in fact, demonstrated that Hussein arrested the guy you claimed he was sheltering.


It is unclear just when Hussein arrested the guy, or even for that matter if he ever was actually under arrest. He certainly wasn't under arrest in 1994.

Again, there was the offer of asylum to Osama bin Laden. Osama rejected the offer, but that doesn't change the fact the offer was made. There were other instances as well, as described in previous threads on the subject.

And of course, the nominal allegiance of the terrorists Hussein aided to this group or that group does nothing to alter the fact that neither MAIA nor any of the other participants of this thread have been able to back up the two claims I challenged MAIA to back up.

Quote:
Apparently, unlike you, I've kept up on information that has come out since then which has shown that the sources of information that Bush administration used to build their case for war to be fraudulent, from sources that the intelligence community knew to be sketchy, or worse yet, extracted by means of torture (which has proven to be unreliable). The vast majority of the early information that was in the media around the time of the war, turned out to be false, so this requires a bit more proof then, "I read it in Time magazine".


Actually, this turns out not to be the case. In fact, Hussein's connections to various terrorist groups was far more extensive than was known pre-invasion.

However, even if this were not the case (and it is the case, but let's pretend otherwise for a few minutes here) it would do nothing other than show that the world's intelligence agencies were mistaken, not that Bush ginned up this stuff out of nowhere. Remember, these links between Hussein and terrorist organizations were being reported in the media long before Bush became president.

Quote:
I am challenging you to back up a major claim that Iraq aided al-Qaeda as well as providing them with chemical weapons knowledge.


And yet gain I must repeat - I never said Hussein aided al Qaeda as an organization. He did, however, provide safe haven and training for several terrorists who were either al Qaeda members at the time or ended up joining al Qaeda at some point in time. See previous threads for details. And again, he extended an invitation to Osama bin Laden to set up shop in Iraq once Sudan was no longer a viable option for ObL and the boys.

Quote:
Without demonstrating that, what we have to go with is that Bush & co, in fact, used sketchy information to erroneously tie Iraq to al-Qaeda, and by extension, tying Iraq to 9/11.


Your problem is that you insist on using "terrorist" as a synonym for "al Qaeda". The two are not equivalent. The Bush administration was aware of the difference. Why aren't you?

Quote:
This does not mean they claimed that Iraq was responsible for 9/11, but rather that the administration used the fear the was caused by 9/11 as a justification to go with war with Iraq. I don't know many people who even deny this, and I talk to people from all across the spectrum. Even the die hard Bush-lovers admit this when I talk to them. But Phred is disputing this...


But I am not disputing this. I have never disputed it! Of course people's opinions on the merits of resuming hostilities with Hussein's regime were different post 9/11 than they were pre 9/11. I have never once in all my years on this forum argued otherwise, and any statement asserting this  is my position can only be classified as profoundly dishonest or profoundly stupid. Which would you prefer the readers go with? Dishonest or stupid?

Quote:
I provided examples of how the Bush administration made comments which falsely link Iraq & al-Qaeda as a method of shifting blame onto Iraq.


But that's the whole point! You have done no such thing.

Quote:
No more excuses. Either back up your claims or admit that you're wrong.


I'm sorry... where have you or anyone else backed up MAIA's claims? That is what the thread is about after all, not to determine the nominal allegiance of the terrorists Hussein aided and abetted (which has been done to death in many MANY threads over the years, none of which are difficult to find in the forum archives). Look, if you find the "search" function too difficult to figure out, just use the "Similar Threads" window at the bottom of this page.





Phred


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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: zorbman]
    #10108273 -

Quote:
THEY DON'T EXIST.


Actually, they do exist. Until about two posts ago there were two of them in the list of "Related Threads" at the bottom of the page. But the program that loads those thread titles into "Related Threads" is a dynamic one, so as new posts are added to the thread, the list will often change. Maybe those threads will reappear, maybe they won't.

But the threads exist. They are not hard to find.

*edit* Sorry, I mean "Similar Threads" not "Related Threads". My bad.





Phred


--------------------

Edited by Phred (04/05/09 12:27 AM)

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Re: Answers from MAIA [Re: Phred]
    #10108428 -

Quote:
Until about two posts ago there were two of them..


More excuses and sleight of hand. Anything but the truth.

Quote:
They are not hard to find.


Oh good.

It should take you no time at all to prove you are not full of  :poop:

If you spent half the time locating these threads which you say are "not hard to find" than you do fending off numerous challengers you would save yourself a buttload of time and simultaneously deal a crushing blow to your enemies.

Of course you won't do that because you sir are in fact full of :poop:.

Stop asking people to prove a negative.

Be a man and support your claims or stop wasting our time.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (04/05/09 01:38 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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