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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion
    #9994727 -

President Obama's climate plan could cost industry close to $2 trillion, nearly three times the White House's initial estimate of the so-called "cap-and-trade" legislation, according to Senate staffers who were briefed by the White House.

A top economic aide to Mr. Obama told a group of Senate staffers last month that the president's climate-change plan would surely raise more than the $646 billion over eight years the White House had estimated publicly, according to multiple a number of staffers who attended the briefing Feb. 26.

"We all looked at each other like, 'Wow, that's a big number,'" said a top Republican staffer who attended the meeting along with between 50 and 60 other Democratic and Republican congressional aides.

The plan seeks to reduce pollution by setting a limit on carbon emissions and allowing businesses and groups to buy allowances, although exact details have not been released.

At the meeting, Jason Furman, a top Obama staffer, estimated that the president's cap-and-trade program could cost up to three times as much as the administration's early estimate of $646 billion over eight years. A study of an earlier cap-and-trade bill co-sponsored by Mr. Obama when he was a senator estimated the cost could top $366 billion a year by 2015.

A White House official did not confirm the large estimate, saying only that Obama aides previously had noted that the $646 billion estimate was "conservative."

"Any revenues in excess of the estimate would be rebated to vulnerable consumers, communities and businesses," the official said.

The Obama administration has proposed using the majority of the money generated from a cap-and-trade plan to pay for its middle-class tax cuts, while using about $120 billion to invest in renewable-energy projects.

Mr. Obama and congressional Democratic leaders have made passing a climate-change bill a top priority. But Republican leaders and moderate to conservative Democrats have cautioned against levying increased fees on businesses while the economy is still faltering.

House Republican leaders blasted the costs in the new estimate.

"The last thing we need is a massive tax increase in a recession, but reportedly that's what the White House is offering: up to $1.9 trillion in tax hikes on every single American who drives a car, turns on a light switch or buys a product made in the United States," said Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Minority Leader John A. Boehner. "And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/18/obama-climate-plan-could-cost-2-trillion/

A trillion here, two trillion there, when will it end?


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9994881 -

> when will it end?

January, 2012, if we are lucky...


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: Seuss]
    #9994937 -

I want a bumper sticker with that date on it.
1/20/12


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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9994963 -

zappaisgod said:
I want a bumper sticker with that date on it.
1/20/12


Celebrating the birth of Walter Owen Briggs, Jr., eh?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9994974 -

zappaisgod said:
I want a bumper sticker with that date on it.
1/20/12


:rofl:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: lonestar2004]
    #10022813 -

So they pay the allowance, pass on the expense to the customer, in the end the only difference is they sucked more money out of us.

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: DropScience]
    #10023651 -

Quote:
"And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."



I'd like to see action to force international cooperation on these matters, but don't expect that neocon in office to do anything against free trade.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10024203 -

ScavengerType said:
Quote:
"And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."



I'd like to see action to force international cooperation on these matters, but don't expect that neocon in office to do anything against free trade.



The fact remains that this is why I generally oppose these sorts of things.  Why make us less competitive without clear benifits?  I see no such clear benifits and if Obama wants this shit he needs to demonstrate what the benifits are that would surmount the loss of competitivity.



Though it is irrelevant, I can't help but think this is more of the same from the academics and policy/science folks who live comfortable lifestyles and have no idea what its like to not know when you will be able to afford food or rent.  It seems monumentally unfair to attack buisness in this way without clear benifits, and I can't help but feel a bit of classist bullshit in these proposals.


If they want this crap they need to lay out why and what the effects are and demonstrate the effects are on net positive.

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: johnm214]
    #10024238 -

Alternatively a case could be made for pushing us (developed countries) into the direction of reducing emissions because it makes economic sense in the long run. When the fossil fuels are running out, the country that made the switch to alternative energy is going to be on top. We all know we'll need to do it eventually.

$2 trillion is a lot of money though. My biggest concern is that the economic crisis is going to put the environment at the bottom of the list and it could be decades before any real progress is made.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zouden]
    #10024243 -

A case could be made for anything, and i don't think that's an alternative to what I suggested- its percisely what i asked for.


If obama wants some huge spending shit while we are allready fucked up he should tell us why, and demonstrate he is correct.  I will not support something just cuz it has "green" stamped on it, show me how this benifits us.


I just don't like these hail marry spending plans with unclear goals and unclear certainty of success.  Often these thing are sold by politicians who know nothing but "it's good fo rthe enivironment, we must take care fo the earth, we must..." which is as useful as saying "don't you want to help children?" or "support this if you like good"

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: johnm214]
    #10024269 -

But isn't slowing global warming enough of a benefit for you? The latter half of this century is going to be absolutely disastrous for humanity if we don't at least reduce the effects. Rising sea levels is one thing, but the real killer will be the droughts.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10024816 -

ScavengerType said:
Quote:
"And since this energy tax won't affect manufacturers in Mexico, India and China, it will do nothing but drive American jobs overseas."



I'd like to see action to force international cooperation on these matters, but don't expect that neocon in office to do anything against free trade.



are you calling Obama a Neocon?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zouden]
    #10024823 -

zouden said:
But isn't slowing global warming enough of a benefit for you? The latter half of this century is going to be absolutely disastrous for humanity if we don't at least reduce the effects. Rising sea levels is one thing, but the real killer will be the droughts.




No, of course its not enough of a benifit.


Are you suggesting some immeasurably small benifit re: global warming effects is worth any price at all?  Or only 2 trillion?


If we are arguing there is more than an immeasurably small benifit then, that's my point.  He should demonstrate it.


I'm not going to support spending infinite sums of money for what amounts to no benifit and substantial problems in other areas just cuz someone slaps a "green" label on it.


As I said in my other posts, some of this crap feels like just an appeal to  hysteria.  Profering the ills of global warming does nothing to show how this bill is any good.  The same claim could be made for giving 2 trillion dollars for me.  I don't care about their vague qualitative goals.

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zouden]
    #10024961 -

AGW is a wealth redistribution fiction.


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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10025004 -

zappaisgod said:
AGW is a wealth redistribution fiction.


I would agree with half of that.  While AGW is perfectly plausible given the data, dangerous AGW is not.  Yes the earth has been warming since the IR but it's probably not going to be a problem.  Especially since new renewables technologies will naturally progress as traditional fuels become scarce and expensive in the long run.

We do not need 'initiatives' (read: scams) to cure a global environmental crisis.  DAGW is a transparent ploy to milk money from taxpayers.  I remember the moment I decided that global warming was a non-issue with huge political motivations.  It was when I first watched Al Gore's farcical "film."  How do you legitimize theft from voters?  Make them feel guilty and afraid, then provide a solution to their feelings.

Global warming is a fucking scam.


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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: Hypercube]
    #10025796 -

Yes lonestar I am calling Obama a neocon. If he wasn't one he would have nationalized the banks instead of buying/lending to them and bailing them out before owning a share that the government will eventually sell. If Obama wasn't a neocon you would see more than a 3% tax hike for the wealthy when the budget is in massive deficit spending.

As for if the policy is appropriate, it is. I've done a lot of research into how carbon and pollution regulation should be regulated and this is the style that is the least harm for the US economy. It's a model that helps phase polluting businesses out. The tax would be more effective if the money was redistributed to cleaner businesses or to subsidize clean development. However the middle class needs the money right now so it is a priority for the government to redistribute the money to them... I suppose. :shrug:

Hypercube: So your basing your opinion, on a scientific matter, on "the political atmosphere" at a particular time?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (03/23/09 12:12 PM)

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10025824 -

ScavengerType said:
Yes lonestar I am calling Obama a neocon. If he wasn't one he would have nationalized the banks instead of buying/lending to them and bailing them out before owning a share that the government will eventually sell. If Obama wasn't a neocon you would see more than a 3% tax hike for the wealthy when the budget is in massive deficit spending.

As for if the policy is appropriate, it is. I've done a lot of research into how carbon and pollution regulation should be regulated and this is the style that is the least harm for the US economy. It's a model that helps phase polluting businesses out. The tax would be more effective if the money was redistributed to cleaner businesses or to subsidize clean development. However the middle class needs the money right now so it is a priority for the government to redistribute the money to them... I suppose. :shrug:




He nationalized the banks?



and I like how you define the policy as appropriate because it doesn't cause much harm to buisness.  Happy to do anything at all so long as the label slapped on it is appropriate?  I would think we'd want something that would not only do something but do something positive rather than simply being relativly affordable.


My "give me a million dollars to save the world and destroy global warming while helping buisness plan" is more affordable than any of the other proposals.  We supporting that one?

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: Hypercube]
    #10027120 -

Hypercube said:
While AGW is perfectly plausible given the data, dangerous AGW is not.  Yes the earth has been warming since the IR but it's probably not going to be a problem.


No offence, but how do you know?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: johnm214]
    #10027256 -

Let me clarify my vague post.  I am basing my opinion on global warming on scientific fact.  The notion that global warming is a political ploy to sucker people into accepting political intrusions into their wealth and freedom occurred to me during "An Inconvenient Truth," at which point I did some research and decided that yes, indeed his arguments were totally and utterly flawed scientifically.

20 foot ocean rise?  Greenland melting into the ocean?  Severe droughts all over America?  Al Gore has NOTHING to back up his claims, save for a few haphazard graphs conjured up by some lackey scientists whose credibility have since been obliterated by good science done by politically uninterested people.  DAGW proponents have repeatedly cherry-picked data, failed to prove themselves and in general accept a conclusion before they look at reality.  Phil Jones, developer of the UN IPCC temperature history, said in a letter to Australian climatologist Warrick Hughes in 2005 "We have 25 years or so invested in the work.  Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it?"  Hiding much?

Scientists like to get funding and if they say something as true and banal as "global warming is very unlikely to herald a catastrophic end to society" they are far less likely to progress professionally than scientists who receive hefty gov't funding and positions by touting the party line of doom and gloom.  Of course, media outlets like to sensationalize too, and continue to misinterpret scientific findings to give them an alarmist voice.  When was the last time you saw a headline read "world not coming to end"?

The thing that pisses me off is that people have accepted the argument based on intuition and a feeling of guilt, rather than looking at the TRUE information available to them.  For some fucked up reason we LIKE to think that we're sooooooo powerful and we've totally wrecked this earth because we're soooooo naive and thank god I'm not an ignorant person and I care about the planet so I'll recycle and pay carbon taxes and buy local and get new subsidized energy-efficient everything and look at me I'm progressive.  Well FUCK YOU, hypothetical person I just made up.  Before you decide that CO2 is going to bring this planet to it's knees do some fucking homework to see if it will.  But people have skipped that part and now we're focusing on how to solve these non-existent problems.  Of course it is going to require GOVERNMENT MONEY (that is to say, your money).  Big surprise.


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Re: Obama climate plan could cost $2 trillion [Re: zouden]
    #10027336 -

zouden said:
Hypercube said:
While AGW is perfectly plausible given the data, dangerous AGW is not.  Yes the earth has been warming since the IR but it's probably not going to be a problem.


No offence, but how do you know?


There are too many data to list on any number of DAGW claims.  There are several good, internally consistent compilations of climate data that argue my position.

Try
Bailey, Ronald.  Global Warming and Other Eco-Myths. (2002)
and
Michaels and Balling Jr.  Climate of Extremes (2009)


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