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OfflineSuperKuzman
Closet Grower
Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 5
Loc: NY
Last seen: 14 years, 17 days
Liquid Innoculation straight to dung?
    #999304 - 10/28/02 08:12 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I have been growing on and off for years and have tried just about everything. Now I usually germinate spores in honey water then add peroxide to kill any possible contaminants that slipped passed pressure cooking. I know it is standard to spawn mycellium on grain to be used for innoculation of dung, but this tends to be the step that contamination will occur if it does. To my understanding, the purpose of spawn is to isolate contam-free mycellium in enough quantity to have many innoculation points when moving to a final substrate. I'm wondering how successful it would be to use a larger quantity of liquid mycellium to directly innoculate smaller batches of dung. In nature, spores germinate and fruit without the introduction of a intermediary such as spawn, so I figure it will work (although slower) but am wondering if anyone has any experience and/or thoughts on this method. I believe that Chinese commercial growers use a similar method, but on a much larger scale. My thought is that this will cut down on the chance of contamination with less medium-to-medium transfers, but don't know if this is completely offset by the substrate taking longer to colonize than if spawn was used instead.


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Offlinedamnfunkypro
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Registered: 09/13/02
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: SuperKuzman]
    #999340 - 10/28/02 08:56 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

hmmm... this is an interesting idea. i'd be interested to hear what people have to say about this.

peace


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Offlineuser_exists
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Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: SuperKuzman]
    #999437 - 10/28/02 10:15 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

sorry I can't awnser your Q, What honey water tek are you using? I recently innoculated some honey water and hope it works.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: SuperKuzman]
    #999626 - 10/28/02 12:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

It's even possible to make a direct spore innoculation on dung. Never done it but i know at least Anno did such thing.
If it works that way, it would be even better wich mycelium in honey water, you cut on germination time. I believe if you do it clean you have success guaranted.

MAIA


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OfflineGao
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: MAIA]
    #999694 - 10/28/02 12:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

A major drawback of the direct liquid innoc. route is that you bypass the bonus of having a semi-selective medium. Using grain spawn locks up your contaminant prone nutrients allowing you a much wider berth on sterility. I've never tried it, but I would think that with liquid spawning of dung, you'd be wise to sterilize that shit instead of pasteurize. You'll also see lower yields if you don't suppliment it, which again increases your likelyhood of contamination. I mean, if you want to achieve a faster colinization, just use more spawn. Last I checked birdseed was real cheap.

And if you are having problems keeping spawn jars sterile, imagine how much worse it will be trying to keep bulk substrate sterile.

But hey, I'm sure you could get it to work. It just doesn't seem like you'd have anything to gain from it.


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OfflineSuperKuzman
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Registered: 10/17/02
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: Gao]
    #999912 - 10/28/02 02:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

You stated that grain spawn lock up contaminant prone nutrients. How does this occur, and wouldn't it be locking up the contaminant prone nutrients in the grain and not the compost? If it locks up the contaminant nutrients in dung, exactly how does grain spawn acheive this? I do however understand that grain is a semi-selective medium and that's why it is used so extensively in commercial production.


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OfflineGao
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: SuperKuzman]
    #1000004 - 10/28/02 02:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Woah now.

OK, the way that grain locks up contaminant prone nutrients is by total colonization with fungal mycelium. Even if a contam spore were to find it's way to a millet seed, it is unlikely it would germinate, because the fungus would prevent it. The network of hypahe that makes up the mycelium is continuious, nutrients are able to be passed (along with pretty much everything, including the nucleus of the hyphal element it's self, at least that's what I've read) through pores in the septae. Thus, you can effectively lock up nurtients in the grain while still allowing the fungus to degrade cellulose for energy. It's like the difference in drinking a 2 liter of coke on a full stomach, or when you're hella hungry. One's grubbin, the other will crack you out and dosen't do much to satisfy your hunger.

Grain it's self is not semi-selective at all. It is highly contam prone. That's why when making the grain-spawn masters, you have to be as sterile as possible. With semi-selective substrates less precaution is possible without necessiarly spelling disaster.


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OfflineSuperKuzman
Closet Grower
Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 5
Loc: NY
Last seen: 14 years, 17 days
Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: Gao]
    #1000042 - 10/28/02 03:05 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My underlying theory with this was the fact that grain is indeed prone to contamination having so many endospores. The reason I was thinking of direct liquid innoculation to dung is twofold. One to see if mycellial growth can get to the level of mycellial volume grain spawn has when first innoculated, and see if it will get to that point faster on dung than on grain, sort of a race. The other was to see if there was a contamination tradeoff between the two methods since there is one less medium to medium transfer and you avoid grain altogether. Either way I'm going to try both methods. Any other thoughts/info would be greatly appreciated.


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InvisibleSixTango
Mycota

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: SuperKuzman]
    #1000212 - 10/28/02 04:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Bear in mind that, commercial mushroom culivators with years & years of pro experiance world wide generaly spawn compost substrate with a grain spawn.

That "say's" something. Meaning, if a liquid innoc of a myc suspension were better, that is what they would do. They don't. What's that tell you?

It tells me, grain or seed spawn is the most effective means to get the desired result.

Moreover, any nutrient liquid is very contam prone. All a few contam spores have to do is, touch it, at any stage to get a foothold. Once that foothold is made, the little bastards can f*ck up the whole works without you even knowing it. Until the green or cobwed shows its ugly face later. :frown:

But, whatever floats your boat? Go for it. The only thing you risk is wasted time, expense & having to start fresh, if it goes wrong.  :crazy:

6T :tongue: 


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OfflinePsilosShaman
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Registered: 09/17/02
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Re: Liquid Innoculation straight to dung? [Re: SixTango]
    #1003270 - 10/29/02 03:20 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I have tried doing a direct spawn from liquid mycelium to a dung straw mix. I used light malt extract to be exact. The problems I found were....the liquid mycelium isn't strong enough to grow throughout the dung in a descent time period. I had horrible...yes horrible problems with contamination....green mold to be exact. With dung you are suppose to pasteurize and then strain so that it is fairly dry....when you use the liquid mycelium you are adding un needed liquid back into your substrate....hence the reason for the contams. You would be better off using the liquid mycel. to spawn grain.


Edited by PsilosShaman (10/29/02 03:23 PM)


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