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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
The Map is not the Territory
    #989809 - 10/24/02 04:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. Repeat twelve billion times.

It used to be a nice little saying until it got captured and raped and sold in little pieces. Somewhere along the way, the meaning was lost. I mean, it's a nice little saying, but when it is used in an argument for objective reality, I'm likely to get a headache (I have).

So let's get real, shall we? (Yeah.) "The Map is not the Territory" is a cheap rip-off from the old zen proverb that one should not confuse the finger pointing to the moon with the moon itself. "Yup, " you say, " Got that. It means that a concept is not the real thing. The word "moon" is not the moon, and the moon is not the word "moon". The moon is not a concept. The moon is a big sphere floating in space."

Well, my friend, you are staring at just another finger.

Congratulations if you got it. Otherwise, read the quote at the end of buttonion's posts. If you still don't get it, look for a long time at the icon I posted this under. Believe me, you will get it.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #989975 - 10/24/02 04:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My dog has never got that one either... I point and she licks my finger.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,150
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Sclorch]
    #990028 - 10/24/02 05:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

well you know what they say about dogs... they always resemble their master!  :grin:

my dog would get it hehehehe


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: In(di)go]
    #990050 - 10/24/02 05:19 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Her sister (my other dog) gets it just fine.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #990119 - 10/24/02 05:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Mass marketing of NLP. Capitalism at its finest...All good things come to an end when capital oinkers want a piece of the action.

Whoever wants to play with NLP will have to find a *genuine* trainer who knows what he/she is yacking about.



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Anonymous

Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #990215 - 10/24/02 06:16 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

And of course you have proof of this, don't you?

If not you're barking up the wrong tree, dog. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #990469 - 10/24/02 08:03 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Word up Nomad.

And "word down" to all you other ignant bitzes  (j/k) :grin: 


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Sclorch]
    #991836 - 10/25/02 03:40 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

My dog has never got that one either... I point and she licks my...

Neither has my girlfriend - fortunately.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ]
    #991937 - 10/25/02 06:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

And of course you have proof of this, don't you?

Well, you did not address buttonion's reference to Goedel yet (take your time). The Incompleteness Theorem says that for every axiomatic system , there are true assertions for which there is no proof. Now, logic itself is an axiomatic system. The three axioms are:

1. Nothing can be both true and false.

2. The truth table of NOT.

3. The truth table of either NAND or NOR.

Therefore, there are things which are logically true, but cannot be proven by logic. And yes, that can be proven. :laugh:

I wonder how Aristotle feels in his grave. Pythagoras was a lucky man, he got killed in his lifetime. To kill Aristotle, it took two thousand years of mathematics. Rationalism in the west is a sad story, isn't it? Everyone who made a major contribution was either proven wrong or became insane (speaking of Pythagoras, the guy was completely nuts). And then there's Goedel, the greatest logician of all times, who believed that his food was poisoned, refused to eat, and starved. You gotta love logic.

Freakin' madmen i say.  :wink:   


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Anonymous

Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #992075 - 10/25/02 10:11 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Well, you did not address buttonion's reference to Goedel yet (take your time).

Why would I do otherwise.  To rush is to err.

The Incompleteness Theorem says that for every axiomatic system , there are true assertions for which there is no proof. Now, logic itself is an axiomatic system. The three axioms are:

1. Nothing can be both true and false.

2. The truth table of NOT.

3. The truth table of either NAND or NOR.

Therefore, there are things which are logically true, but cannot be proven by logic. And yes, that can be proven.


I thought you eschewed logic for zen?

I wonder how Aristotle feels in his grave.

Probably fine.

Pythagoras was a lucky man, he got killed in his lifetime.

Depends, a fool despises reproof but a wise man welcomes it. And THAT makes him decidedly unlucky.

To kill Aristotle, it took two thousand years of mathematics.

Unfortunately you have misread Aristotle.  Don't feel bad though, nearly everyone does.

Rationalism in the west is a sad story, isn't it?

Hardly, rationalism is alive and well.  But aren't you conflating rationalism with realism?

Everyone who made a major contribution was either proven wrong or became insane (speaking of Pythagoras, the guy was completely nuts). And then there's Goedel, the greatest logician of all times, who believed that his food was poisoned, refused to eat, and starved.

Hyperbole won't get you very far I'm afraid (but then again I frighten easily :wink: ).  And Shirley you know that ad homs are yet another example of an irrelevant phallacy. :wink:

Bottom line is I asked for empirical proof and you don't have any.  I suspected as much.  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I must say I am extremely impressed with your knowledge of philosophy/logic. Most idealists are ignorant of both subjects.  But nevermind me we're not sure I exist. :tongue:

Cheers, 


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Offlineehud
Rocket Scientist
Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 217
Loc: Middle America
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #993092 - 10/25/02 06:41 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I love linguistics. how does one concieness comunicate to another, how did you know that we knew it was the "moon" you were talking about what is a "moon" any way?


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ]
    #1029514 - 11/06/02 08:39 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, missed that...

I thought you eschewed logic for zen?

What, is zen and logic exclusive? The buddha was so obsessed with logical conclusions that a lot of the sutras are practically unreadable. They'll bore you to death. But the buddha never thought that he could find truth by means of logic. He used it as a tool to point people to their own truth. You cannot use a wrench to unscrew truth, can you?

Depends, a fool despises reproof but a wise man welcomes it. And THAT makes him decidedly unlucky.

Yes, but a chance is all you can ever hope for. Lucky is he who gets one.

But aren't you conflating rationalism with realism?

Don't think so. Rationalism being the attitude displayed by someone who demands proof for something which questions the validity of logic itself. If every premise is false, what could you possibly conclude? (Everything.)

And Shirley you know that ad homs are yet another example of an irrelevant phallacy.

No ad hom involved. I know the difference between an argument and a rant. You do, too.

Bottom line is I asked for empirical proof and you don't have any.

Yes, but you missed the point. You said that if I didn't have proof, I am "barking up the wrong tree". That implies that something which cannot be proven is wrong. That implication is false and I can prove it.

I must say I am extremely impressed with your knowledge of philosophy/logic. Most idealists are ignorant of both subjects.

Yes, sir. But then again, most realists don't dig Terence McKenna. Nothing but respect for you. :wink: 


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ehud]
    #1029596 - 11/06/02 08:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

what is a "moon" any way?



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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #1030875 - 11/07/02 02:33 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The menu is not the meal


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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ]
    #1030891 - 11/07/02 02:38 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Heres some proof. Think of the word pinch, and then pinch yourself, do you see the difference?


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