Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
The Map is not the Territory
    #989809 -

The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. The Map is not the Territory. Repeat twelve billion times.

It used to be a nice little saying until it got captured and raped and sold in little pieces. Somewhere along the way, the meaning was lost. I mean, it's a nice little saying, but when it is used in an argument for objective reality, I'm likely to get a headache (I have).

So let's get real, shall we? (Yeah.) "The Map is not the Territory" is a cheap rip-off from the old zen proverb that one should not confuse the finger pointing to the moon with the moon itself. "Yup, " you say, " Got that. It means that a concept is not the real thing. The word "moon" is not the moon, and the moon is not the word "moon". The moon is not a concept. The moon is a big sphere floating in space."

Well, my friend, you are staring at just another finger.

Congratulations if you got it. Otherwise, read the quote at the end of buttonion's posts. If you still don't get it, look for a long time at the icon I posted this under. Believe me, you will get it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #989975 -

My dog has never got that one either... I point and she licks my finger.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Sclorch]
    #990028 -

well you know what they say about dogs... they always resemble their master!  :grin:

my dog would get it hehehehe


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: In(di)go]
    #990050 -

Her sister (my other dog) gets it just fine.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #990119 -

Mass marketing of NLP. Capitalism at its finest...All good things come to an end when capital oinkers want a piece of the action.

Whoever wants to play with NLP will have to find a *genuine* trainer who knows what he/she is yacking about.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #990215 -

And of course you have proof of this, don't you?

If not you're barking up the wrong tree, dog. :wink:

Cheers, 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #990469 -

Word up Nomad.

And "word down" to all you other ignant bitzes  (j/k) :grin: 


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Sclorch]
    #991836 -

My dog has never got that one either... I point and she licks my...

Neither has my girlfriend - fortunately.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ]
    #991937 -

And of course you have proof of this, don't you?

Well, you did not address buttonion's reference to Goedel yet (take your time). The Incompleteness Theorem says that for every axiomatic system , there are true assertions for which there is no proof. Now, logic itself is an axiomatic system. The three axioms are:

1. Nothing can be both true and false.

2. The truth table of NOT.

3. The truth table of either NAND or NOR.

Therefore, there are things which are logically true, but cannot be proven by logic. And yes, that can be proven. :laugh:

I wonder how Aristotle feels in his grave. Pythagoras was a lucky man, he got killed in his lifetime. To kill Aristotle, it took two thousand years of mathematics. Rationalism in the west is a sad story, isn't it? Everyone who made a major contribution was either proven wrong or became insane (speaking of Pythagoras, the guy was completely nuts). And then there's Goedel, the greatest logician of all times, who believed that his food was poisoned, refused to eat, and starved. You gotta love logic.

Freakin' madmen i say.  :wink:   

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #992075 -

Well, you did not address buttonion's reference to Goedel yet (take your time).

Why would I do otherwise.  To rush is to err.

The Incompleteness Theorem says that for every axiomatic system , there are true assertions for which there is no proof. Now, logic itself is an axiomatic system. The three axioms are:

1. Nothing can be both true and false.

2. The truth table of NOT.

3. The truth table of either NAND or NOR.

Therefore, there are things which are logically true, but cannot be proven by logic. And yes, that can be proven.

I thought you eschewed logic for zen?

I wonder how Aristotle feels in his grave.

Probably fine.

Pythagoras was a lucky man, he got killed in his lifetime.

Depends, a fool despises reproof but a wise man welcomes it. And THAT makes him decidedly unlucky.

To kill Aristotle, it took two thousand years of mathematics.

Unfortunately you have misread Aristotle.  Don't feel bad though, nearly everyone does.

Rationalism in the west is a sad story, isn't it?

Hardly, rationalism is alive and well.  But aren't you conflating rationalism with realism?

Everyone who made a major contribution was either proven wrong or became insane (speaking of Pythagoras, the guy was completely nuts). And then there's Goedel, the greatest logician of all times, who believed that his food was poisoned, refused to eat, and starved.

Hyperbole won't get you very far I'm afraid (but then again I frighten easily :wink: ).  And Shirley you know that ad homs are yet another example of an irrelevant phallacy. :wink:

Bottom line is I asked for empirical proof and you don't have any.  I suspected as much.  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I must say I am extremely impressed with your knowledge of philosophy/logic. Most idealists are ignorant of both subjects.  But nevermind me we're not sure I exist. :tongue:

Cheers, 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #993092 -

I love linguistics. how does one concieness comunicate to another, how did you know that we knew it was the "moon" you were talking about what is a "moon" any way?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ]
    #1029514 -

Sorry, missed that...

I thought you eschewed logic for zen?

What, is zen and logic exclusive? The buddha was so obsessed with logical conclusions that a lot of the sutras are practically unreadable. They'll bore you to death. But the buddha never thought that he could find truth by means of logic. He used it as a tool to point people to their own truth. You cannot use a wrench to unscrew truth, can you?

Depends, a fool despises reproof but a wise man welcomes it. And THAT makes him decidedly unlucky.

Yes, but a chance is all you can ever hope for. Lucky is he who gets one.

But aren't you conflating rationalism with realism?

Don't think so. Rationalism being the attitude displayed by someone who demands proof for something which questions the validity of logic itself. If every premise is false, what could you possibly conclude? (Everything.)

And Shirley you know that ad homs are yet another example of an irrelevant phallacy.

No ad hom involved. I know the difference between an argument and a rant. You do, too.

Bottom line is I asked for empirical proof and you don't have any.

Yes, but you missed the point. You said that if I didn't have proof, I am "barking up the wrong tree". That implies that something which cannot be proven is wrong. That implication is false and I can prove it.

I must say I am extremely impressed with your knowledge of philosophy/logic. Most idealists are ignorant of both subjects.

Yes, sir. But then again, most realists don't dig Terence McKenna. Nothing but respect for you. :wink: 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ehud]
    #1029596 -

what is a "moon" any way?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: Nomad]
    #1030875 -

The menu is not the meal

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Map is not the Territory [Re: ]
    #1030891 -

Heres some proof. Think of the word pinch, and then pinch yourself, do you see the difference?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Map -> territory; mind and consciousness OrgoneConclusion 367 7 07/04/13 03:48 PM
by hTx
* Map - > territory confuses non-materialists
( 1 2 all )		 OrgoneConclusion 1,553 22 08/17/14 12:51 PM
by soldatheero
* New map found, 120 million years old?
( 1 2 all )		 tekramrepus 3,097 29 12/21/03 01:47 PM
by shroominsmurf
* Aristotle Noetical 2,419 18 10/14/07 12:19 AM
by backfromthedead
* Aristotle's definition of happiness: is wealth necessary? deCypher 2,013 15 11/29/11 05:38 PM
by deCypher
* Aristotle VoidOfsPg 1,113 9 10/20/06 07:54 PM
by shroomydan
* Why, Aristotle? Sclorch 1,599 18 10/13/02 10:01 AM
by xganon
* Would Aristotle Support the Occupy Movement? TheChillMovement 582 14 11/22/11 02:21 PM
by Icelander

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,747 topic views. 0 members, 382 guests and 20 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 14 queries.