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Map - > territory confuses non-materialists
    #20402841 -

Most people seem to be aware of the concept of not confusing the map with the territory - except when it comes to their pet hypothesis.

The word 'mind' is a descriptor for a sub-group of brain processes. It is a word created to communicate an idea, but because it has been in use for so long, many forget this is a map and use the word as some magic evidence for non-materialism.

Non-materialist: "You can't show me mind therefore there is more than the physical."

Doesn't work that way. :sorry:


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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20402930 -

Intellect as a super-conscious state as distinguished from the faculties of feeling and willing is more than the physical.

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #20402938 -

Let's keep them intelligent girls penned-up for our own good.

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #20403664 -

Everything is mind, mind is everything




:whacker:


One


--------------------
I am that, which is.

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Khancious]
    #20404307 -

Khancious said:
Everything is mind, mind is everything








^^ mind

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20405378 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Most people seem to be aware of the concept of not confusing the map with the territory - except when it comes to their pet hypothesis.

The word 'mind' is a descriptor for a sub-group of brain processes. It is a word created to communicate an idea, but because it has been in use for so long, many forget this is a map and use the word as some magic evidence for non-materialism.

Non-materialist: "You can't show me mind therefore there is more than the physical."

Doesn't work that way. :sorry:


Neuroscientists can now measure the activity of the "mind", and map the areas of the brain used to generate this activity, is this not the end of all the non-materialist objections you are referring to ?


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L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20406447 -

I have no doubt brain correlates extremely strongly with mind, such that you really, really don't want to hurt your brain. But you have to look at the other end. Why can I imagine my eyes into various different shapes, types and manners? I could plainly demonstrate this to you IRL, if we lived close by. Obviously brain is running the show of mind, but is it material? I don't think so... you are not a material being. 'Matter' is an attitude to the universe. It's the wrong attitude. Just sayin', I have no agenda, everything looks pretty good to me in this universe no matter how the truth turns out now.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: circastes]
    #20406638 -

How can you say the brain isn't material? :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20406978 -

it's coming from his brain.

the map of the brain and the brain itself are convergent, but it is difficult to see the correlation without a great deal of dedication and intelligence.

what is not too difficult to grasp is that memory is associative:

  • what happens together becomes linked (through the event - i.e. this happened with that - in the same frame) AND
  • what is similar becomes linked (i.e. features or properties are close - size, shape, color, cadence, warmth etc.) AND
  • what is repeated is linked more strongly than what is not repeated (i.e. habits and learning).


the map of the brain can help explain why these 3 things happen, but people are more inclined to listen to the radio than design one.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Icelander]
    #20407074 -

Icelander said:
How can you say the brain isn't material? :lol:


Well the face/eyes surely aren't. Somehow this is all a mental construct, but still, you don't want to go hurting that brain thing. It's not a perfectly safe mental construct, but it is still one nonetheless.

I don't know what the world is but it's not fixed, lifeless, meaningless matter.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: circastes]
    #20407129 -

how about meaningful matter
just don't be too serious about it


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: circastes]
    #20407514 -

circastes said:
Icelander said:
How can you say the brain isn't material? :lol:


Well the face/eyes surely aren't. Somehow this is all a mental construct, but still, you don't want to go hurting that brain thing. It's not a perfectly safe mental construct, but it is still one nonetheless.

I don't know what the world is but it's not fixed, lifeless, meaningless matter.


:lol:  Just because our brain creates an image that isn't totally accurate does not mean there is nothing material out there?  Not if you want to remain in the realm of thinking/feeling like we are doing at the moment.  As far as we know that is.

Just because I may dream about flying doesn't mean that's my "real" state of being.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (08/12/14 07:43 AM)

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: circastes]
    #20407605 -

circastes said:
Icelander said:
How can you say the brain isn't material? :lol:


Well the face/eyes surely aren't.


:ilold:

By definition faces and eyes are material. Maybe you don't understand what "material" means? :sherlock:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: fireworks_god]
    #20414574 -

It seems like the material/non-material is often a semantic argument. If material covers everything then it covers whatever a person considers non-material, as long as it's phenomenal. If everything is spiritual then it covers the material as well.

Edited by Rahz (08/13/14 07:43 PM)

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Rahz]
    #20416573 -

yeah the spiritual is material, and many holy people are very materialistic about their spirituality - such serious business!


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20416758 -

I value your opinion rgv; On the question of no-free-will some will declare that we have no choice but to resolve our differences with methods that can result in this:



But apparently this is not so, hence the refutation of the no-free-will position, n'cest pa?

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #20421154 -

are you trying to bring politics and social manipulation of a multitude of bodies, into an examination of personal mental processes?

whoever agrees to any acts of war or aggression implicitly assents to collateral damage.

eg. Hamas wants to open Gaza's border and starts sending rockets into israel which relatiates heavily producing civilian casualties.

sending rockets is disconnected from collateral damage in what way?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20421186 -

Yeah, I'm naïve in not expecting collateral damage due to abrasion.

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 3
    #20428282 -

Quote:
The word 'mind' is a descriptor for a sub-group of brain processes


This is purely your definition or the definition of mind that works for you, asserting materialism.

Quote:
It is a word created to communicate an idea, but because it has been in use for so long, many forget this is a map and use the word as some magic evidence for non-materialism.


It isn't an idea tho, its an experience. You wouldn't even have ideas if it were not for it's existence, they would not even exist because all ideas occur within mind. So you cannot say it is just an idea when really when people say mind they are referring to their sphere of conscious experience, it is certainly is not nothing nor is it an idea.

Quote:
Non-materialist: "You can't show me mind therefore there is more than the physical."



Mind occurs within experience, that much can be said for certain. Experience is just that - experience. To assert that it is caused by the objects of the senses ie) "material objects" is just an assertion unless it is backed by proof or evidence. In actual fact, the claim is on the one who asserts the brain causes experience.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Map - > territory confuses non-materialists [Re: soldatheero]
    #20428525 -

describe experience or evade the topic


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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