Home | Community | Message Board

Sporeworks
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]
Obama on the Auto Bailout
    #9283699 -

Quote:
Obama Transition Said to Consider a ‘Prepack’ Auto Bankruptcy
By Linda Sandler and Jeff Green



Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- President-Elect Barack Obama‘s transition team is exploring a swift, prepackaged bankruptcy for automakers as a possible solution to the industry’s financial crisis, according to a person familiar with the matter.

Obama’s team has already contacted at least one bankruptcy- law firm to say that Daniel Tarullo, a professor at Georgetown University’s law school who heads Obama’s economic policy working group, would call to discuss the workings of a so-called prepack, according to this person.

U.S. lawmakers yesterday postponed until December a vote on whether to give General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC a $25 billion bailout as an alternative. Automakers such as GM could use court protection to reduce debt and reject unfavorable contracts.

“It creates the environment to deal with GM’s problems but limits government financial commitment,” said bankruptcy lawyer Mark Bane of Ropes & Gray in New York.

Tarullo referred the matter to the transition team press office. Team spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said, “We have not put out anything specific for the auto industry except that something needs to be done immediately.”

GM, the largest U.S. automaker, said it might run out of cash as early as the end of the year and that the risk was even greater by mid-2009. GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said this week GM would have to liquidate if it went into bankruptcy.

The automaker probably has weeks rather than months left before it runs out of money unless it gets federal aid, Jerome York, an adviser to billionaire Kirk Kerkorian and a former GM board member, told Bloomberg Television yesterday.

How Prepacks Work

In a prepackaged bankruptcy, an automaker would go into court with financing in hand after reaching agreement with lenders, workers and suppliers on what each would give up and on the business plan to be followed. The process might take six to 12 months, compared with two to five years if the automakers followed an ordinary Chapter 11 proceeding and worked out agreements under a judge’s supervision, Bane said.

Automakers would have to depend on government financing to restructure in bankruptcy court and probably couldn’t attract private loans until they were ready to emerge from the process, Bane said.

Officials of the three automakers told members of Congress this week that they had studied a pre-arranged bankruptcy, championed by Republican lawmakers such as Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, before dismissing the idea as unworkable.

“We have looked at all aspects, whether it’s a prepackage, whether it’s prenegotiated,” Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli told a Senate committee on Nov. 18. The options are all “more negative” than restructuring as a condition of receiving federal aid, he said.

Prepacks Rejected

Wagoner and Alan Mulally, CEO of Dearborn, Michigan-based Ford, also said under congressional questioning that their companies had studied and rejected the idea of reorganizing under court protection.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said yesterday that Democrats reject bankruptcy as an option. (oops...)

In or out of court, automakers will have to submit a viable business plan to gain government funds, Peter Peterson, senior chairman of Blackstone Group LP, said in an interview.

“Unless they can show us the plan, we can’t show them the money,” Pelosi said yesterday.

GM, Ford and Chrysler must submit viability plans by Dec. 2, and Congress would meet the week of Dec. 8 to consider aid, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said yesterday. Congress must see accountability from automakers, Pelosi said.

The congressional deadlock was triggered by disagreement over how to pay for the $25 billion the Big Three automakers are seeking.

Democrats’ Position

Democratic leaders have demanded that the recently approved $700 billion bank-rescue fund be tapped for the auto aid. Their plan stalled with opposition from Republicans and President George W. Bush‘s administration.

The Bush administration joined Levin, Missouri Republican Senator Christopher Bond and others pushing the alternative that would tap the fuel-efficiency loans instead.

“There are other alternatives” to a bridge loan for automakers, Senate Financial Services Chairman Christopher Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat, told reporters yesterday. “The prepackaged bankruptcy is not an idea without constituency here.”

A GM bankruptcy is the “only way” for the biggest U.S. automaker to end union costs that make it uncompetitive, Republican Senator James DeMint of South Carolina said in an interview on Bloomberg Radio.

‘Logical Step’

“I look at the Republicans that say it shouldn’t be saved and should be in Chapter 11, and I agree with that,” said James Harris, President of Seneca Financial Group Inc., a restructuring advisory firm in New York. “I look at the Democrats that say these businesses are very important to the economy, and I agree with that, so the logical step is a prepack,” with some government financing, he said.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said the $700 billion of the Troubled Asset Relief Program shouldn’t be used to rescue automakers. “There are other ways,” he said at a Nov. 18 House hearing. Treasury Department spokeswoman Brookly McLaughlin declined to comment on the prepack proposal.

The collapse of GM would cost the government as much as $200 billion should the biggest U.S. automaker be forced to liquidate, Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at IHS Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts, estimates.

A GM failure would mean “more aid to specific states like Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana, and more money into unemployment and extended benefits,” Behravesh said Nov. 15.

‘Scary’

The domino effect could be “scary,” said bankruptcy lawyer Martin Bienenstock of Dewey & LeBoeuf who teaches corporate reorganization at Harvard Law School and the University of Michigan Law School.

Bankruptcy would trigger failures of auto parts suppliers and dealerships, he said. Securitized auto loans and their insurers would fail, creating ripples through the credit markets, he said.

“The difficulty is assuring the American people that the bailout money won’t simply defer the company’s failure for six to 12 months,” Bienenstock said.




Prepackaged bankruptcy is the right solution, but the unions won't like it. If Obama can get this done, I'll be impressed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: phi1618]
    #9283721 -

Throwing money out there with the bailout just isn't going to do it. You can't just throw more money out there that isn't there. Sure it will fix things in the now, but it will only make things worse down the road.

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how these people are not seeing this. It will cause absolute chaos. If this bailout doesn't work exactly as planned we will be in this position another 20 years down the road. It's basically creating a false economy in hopes that it will stimulate(if that's the word) it enough to get by...Well, what happens when gas goes back up, and people can't afford things again...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: MHbound]
    #9283812 -

from the report posted.

Quote:
In or out of court, automakers will have to submit a viable business plan to gain government funds, Peter Peterson, senior chairman of Blackstone Group LP, said in an interview.

“Unless they can show us the plan, we can’t show them the money,” Pelosi said yesterday.



This is the part where things will either go north or south.

What criteria is being laid out to be in that plan?

That's what I want to see.

The ridiculous part is that the automakers came to Congress, with no plan. They are just asking for money. I am happy to see Congress is insisting on a plan. Knowing that crew of ass clowns with Pelosi as their ring leader, I have no faith in the criteria of the plan or their ability to judge it as being good or bad.

I think her asking for one is just more pageantry to appease the public carrying pitch forks against the bail outs.

I have no confidence in Congress to judge the plan, because I watched a bunch of them crying at the last TARP hearing over voting for that bailout bill and how it is not going the way they intended it to go.

They left Paulsen with to much power to take it to a different dimension and Universe of his own making.

Like how Congress was given a plan to remove Saddam and his WMD,  that he was planning on selling to anti American terrorists, and that they would get Iraqi Oil to pay for the invasion.

They approved it and look what happened.

Phi, do you really trust our Congress to approve the auto makers plans, whenever they do come up with one, when they don't even feel like they should have too.

That in itself is telling enough that they don't really plan on changing a thing to get their acts together.

I hope I am wrong and something magical will occur.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9283854 -

Quote:
That's what I want to see.



You never will. You may hear some of the minor details, but thats about all you will get. You probably won't ever get that...Just that we implemented the "bailout" package. :shrug:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9283861 -

Of course, the political process is messy.

I believe that the worst possible result would be a Ch. 7 bankruptcy for GM - it would probably result in the loss of a significant portion of the American manufacturing base and unemployment for millions of people just at a weak point for the economy. It would be much better just to give the auto companies $25 billion with no strings attached to push off the final reckoning for a few months.

The best result is a clean and swift Ch. 11, and this probably requires government help. The problem is that it might not be politically possible - the Democrats owe the union, and the union gets screwed in this case.

We'll see what happens, but I see this article, and Obama's relevant comment in his 60 minutes interview, as encouraging - by standing up and setting an example, he might be able to get the right solution through Congress.

Of course, actually negotiating the bk is a whole other problem - there are diverse stakeholders with diverse interests, and getting them all to sign off on anything is unlikely - some threats, coercion, theater, and brinksmanship might be needed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: phi1618]
    #9283882 -

What if this bailout plan doesn't make things better?? What if GM gets the money to pay employees etc, but the sales end up staying the same?? I know personally I wouldn't buy a car right now for the simple fact that I really do not know which way the economy is going to go. I understand they aren't just about car sales, but regardless I don't have faith in the industry right now to think 25 billion is going to do much. Then again without it they go under, and a portion of the bedrock that this country has been built on is gone...So, what do you do??

I guess I may be one of the few who are worried about the economy right now...I mean worried bad. We could end up in another stock market crisis, or something even worse. It could get out of hand...I don't keep up with the morons in the white house in the treasury dept, but I do know something has to be done.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9283898 -

What is even more ridiculous is to expect anyone within Congress to comprehend the  "new business plan" that will be submitted.

Those intellectual juggernauts make me tremble.
....... this simply is a horse and pony show to somehow convince people that they really can figure out whats going on.


How much pork ya think will be added to da bill?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: MHbound]
    #9283904 -

Quote:
What if this bailout plan doesn't make things better?



It won't, without a reorganization in bankruptcy. A liquidation would make things a whole lot worse, even for people who don't work directly with the auto industry.

Giving the auto makers the $25 billion without much conditions would basically just be kicking the ball down the road for a few months, and we'd get another chance to do it right (sponsored bk) or wrong (just give them money) very soon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: phi1618]
    #9283914 -

.

Edited by green_titan (04/02/09 04:28 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #9283918 -

Pork isn't a concern here because a $25 billion subsidize was already approved for them in an existing energy bill. The auto makers are just now asking to get their hands on it.

The concern is, since I heard the head of Crysler say they want it to help them through the slow burn of cash until things turn around, is that, it will be burned, things won't turn around soon enough, and they will be asking for more bail out, burn money up ahead.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Green_T]
    #9284253 -

green_titan said:
Most of the people employed by the car companies (machine workers) could work for the next car company that takes their places when these giants go under. The fucks at the top should retire.

If the car companies want to survive, the only thing we should give them money for is developing and producing electric cars. They have the technology, and thats what the public wants. Save the gas for 18 wheelers that can't go electric. Heck, if we gave 3 small electric car companies even 2 billion (ie tesla car company) we would be set.

Should we be bailing out a company that developed an electric car, destroyed it, and then came out 10 years later with the same car again? We could have 10 years of that engineering under our belts!



Just curious if you listen to NPR.  The last few says NPR has been doing a special on Tesla Motors outlining the exact same points above.

Great stuff, that car sounds amazing.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9284532 -

If the car companies want to survive, the only thing we should give them money for is developing and producing electric cars.

This  is fine if you want to spend all your life inside your cell but what about those of us who live in a town or city but love to drive out to the wilderness for some down time?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9284730 -

Madtowntripper said:
green_titan said:
Most of the people employed by the car companies (machine workers) could work for the next car company that takes their places when these giants go under. The fucks at the top should retire.

If the car companies want to survive, the only thing we should give them money for is developing and producing electric cars. They have the technology, and thats what the public wants. Save the gas for 18 wheelers that can't go electric. Heck, if we gave 3 small electric car companies even 2 billion (ie tesla car company) we would be set.

Should we be bailing out a company that developed an electric car, destroyed it, and then came out 10 years later with the same car again? We could have 10 years of that engineering under our belts!



Just curious if you listen to NPR.  The last few says NPR has been doing a special on Tesla Motors outlining the exact same points above.

Great stuff, that car sounds amazing.



everyone talks about electric cars as if they're something
wonderful, I recommend people do a great deal more reading
on the environmental hazards that electric cars pose,
there's better options than electric cars

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9284768 -

Maybe we're at a point with technology where there will be nothing created without a major down side. (maybe this has always been true) Everything will be a Faustian bargain.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Icelander]
    #9284774 -

> If the car companies want to survive, the only thing we should give them money for is developing and producing electric cars.

Electric cars are not the answer.  They simply move pollution somewhere else.  Electricity here costs over 50 cents a kilowatt hour.  When you get a $1200 electric bill each month, you will be wishing you still had the option for gas powered transportation.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9284866 -

That exactly my point...the how will be tied to other things....it may not be a bridge to nowhere...but it will be something.

Do you actually think that the same people who constructed the Fanny and Freddy debacle ala "loans for the poor homeowners" would be able understand a business plan from a corporation?

There will be "tighter" government controls or some variation of pork....we will see


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Icelander]
    #9285055 -

Icelander said:
Maybe we're at a point with technology where there will be nothing created without a major down side.



we're capable of creating engines in challenge vehicles that
manage 9000mpg, it's been around since 1991, we can convert
water to a burnable fuel and still get more than 6000mpg,
there were cars produced in the 50's that managed almost
400mpg on pump gas and even today volkswagon has one that's
capable of more than 300mpg


we have the technology to use produce vehicles that are
capable using less fuel and using cleaner fuels, why on earth
would we want to introduce new toxic metals and chemicals to
the soil and water in addition to what we already have, what
happens in an accident to those overpriced batteries in those
electric cars, where's the electricity generated to charge
those batteries, what happens when the batteries have
exceeded their life span which is currently around 2 years

what in you opinion pollutes less, a 50mpg hybrid or a 300mpg
gas burner, how would you even determine miles per pound of coal

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9285099 -

Quote:
we're capable of creating engines in challenge vehicles that
manage 9000mpg, it's been around since 1991, we can convert
water to a burnable fuel and still get more than 6000mpg,
there were cars produced in the 50's that managed almost
400mpg on pump gas and even today volkswagon has one that's
capable of more than 300mpg



I would love to see sources for this.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9285118 -

Good point. That's why I said maybe as I really don't know.

why on earth
would we want to introduce new toxic metals and chemicals to
the soil and water in addition to what we already have,


I think vested interests might have something to do with this one however.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #9285174 -

We agree. I was saying what you just did.

Seuss, electric for many of us is more about getting off our dependence on foreign oil. People can use solar panels just to charge their car batteries too if pollution is of any concern. Mass production of them can create new jobs too, keeping the money for both cars and energy here in the U.S.

They are working on new solar technology that mimics photosynthesis. The new tech can store more solar power for a long time in areas that do not get as much sun.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/toolbar/#topic=Alternative%20Energy&url=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.peachygreen.com%252Fsolar-power%252Fnew-solar-power-technology-mimics-photosynthesis

If it is going to be spent, I'd rather see the $25 billion go into mass production of both electric cars and the panels to run them, then into the Big 3 to keep doing what they are doing.

Boon Pickens plans for using natural gas, which he says we have a ton of in the U.S. to tap into, sounds like a worthy direction to turn to as well.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Bailout passes House Dems credit Obama for bailout support lonestar2004 595 2 10/03/08 08:25 PM
by piracetam
* Auto Bailout in US. What is this supposed to accomplish?
( 1 2 3 all )
johnm214 5,016 55 02/06/09 01:47 PM
by Bobzimmer
* The right solution for the Auto Industry
( 1 2 3 all )
phi1618 3,263 44 11/20/08 03:49 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* US Auto Industry
( 1 2 all )
phi1618 1,675 28 11/08/08 03:30 PM
by phi1618
* Pelosi Backs Special Session on Auto-Industry Aid
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
lonestar2004 4,321 80 11/13/08 12:03 PM
by Icelander
* With AIG's lavish spending on the bailout money, should there be more oversight to these bailouts? eatyualive 618 2 11/22/08 10:12 PM
by Prisoner#1
* How Obama and Pelosi blew the bailout
( 1 2 all )
Phred 3,180 31 09/30/08 03:34 PM
by lonestar2004
* Superb analysis of the financial "bailout"
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Phred 5,582 105 09/29/08 02:29 PM
by johnm214

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,055 topic views. 3 members, 55 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.