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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: two_rivers]
    #9213553 -

two_rivers said:
does everything have to be proven scientifically before you can move forward in a conversation?  what ever happened to humoring one another for the sake of argument? or hypothetical situations.


When we're talking about observable phenomena (differences and similarities between people, with an attempt to correlate those to hen they were born) that have been in discussion of hundreds (thousands?) of years, it makes sense to bring the scientific method into the conversation.

Astrology has completed the first step: Formulate a hypothesis. But I'm not aware of any attempts to collect data to confirm or deny this hypothesis... Is that because it's never been done, or because it's never been successful in demonstrating a correlation? I'd suspect it's the latter.

If such studies have in fact never been done, I think it's legitimate for the skeptical community to dismiss the claims of astrology until such time as the claims are substantiated in at least a very rudimentary fashion.  The absence of any scientific rigor in a phenomena/correlation set that's been under active discussion for hundreds of years is apalling.

As far as I'm concerned, astrology sits in about the same category as string theory in terms of validity: To be regarded with the utmost skepticism until such time as data is collected to begin substantiating or discrediting it.

Why waste time contemplating the absolutely hypothetical? (Unless of course you're attempting to test the hypotheses, bringing it out of the realm of unsubstantiated hypothesis)


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9213700 -

i don't know...

why wait for science to catch up when you can move forward in conversation just for the hell of it?

why does everybody turn into a rigid scientist anytime mystery or unknown comes into play...  i guess my approach tends to be more philosophical rather than scientific...  the more i think about it though, it just seems that science only serves to limit us...  we are only as wise and knowledgeable as the latest theory... even though we know the world of science is constantly changing and evolving and everything we hold to be true could be shattered by a new theory tomorrow..

Quote:
Why waste time contemplating the absolutely hypothetical?


i don't consider it to be a waste, to me it's interesting.. and contemplation of the absolutely hypothetical is nothing less than philosophy...

i find philosophy to be much more interesting than science (although science is indeed very interesting) because the moment you get into a philosophical debate you are admitting that there are certain things in this life that there are just no physical evidence for.


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:kodama:

Save Shroomerites Anonymous!

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: two_rivers]
    #9213709 -

Quote:
two_rivers said:because the moment you get into a philosophical debate you are admitting that there are certain things in this life that there are just no physical evidence for.


No, that's faith and religion.  Anything you say in philosophy still has to be backed up by a persuasive argument.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: deCypher]
    #9213733 -

The Cypher said:
Quote:
two_rivers said:because the moment you get into a philosophical debate you are admitting that there are certain things in this life that there are just no physical evidence for.


No, that's faith and religion.  Anything you say in philosophy still has to be backed up by a persuasive argument.


:werd:

i'd have no problem considering the merits of an argument for the validity of astrology if it was at least backed up by a little persuasive reasoning.

But saying "the moon influences water, and we're made of water" isn't persuasive, nor is it an example of reasoning. It's connecting two pieces of trivia without elaborating on what significance that's supposed to have to the topic at hand.


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: spacemonkey69]
    #9213751 -

I studied astrology for a long time before coming to the conclusion that it is a form of "cold reading".  Look it up!

Essentially its the same trick that all these TV shows use when they are apparently speaking to your dead relatives.  Its used by gypsies to tell your fortune.  Its used by magicians and tricksters such as Derren Brown.

Cold reading is a little known about yet ancient art.

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: deCypher]
    #9213767 -

so to accept that there is mystery in this life we live, you have to be religious or have faith?  i don't know about that... i'd say to say there is no mystery in life is ignorance and arrogance...

and philosophical statements OUGHT to be backed up by a persuasive argument, but that's subjective based on who is interpreting.  and besides, that's not even what i was arguing about.  a persuasive argument is much different than the scientific method.


--------------------
:kodama:

Save Shroomerites Anonymous!

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: two_rivers]
    #9213797 -

Certainly there's mystery in life. Ideally it would be addressed by the scientific method, but simple reasoning is an adequate way to address it in the meantime. 

I don't understand what's to be gained by assigning mystery to the category of something that can't be addressed by reasoning and logic. To me, that seems like arrogant ignorance.

I agree with ego death: Astrology seems like it's 95% cold reading.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: two_rivers]
    #9213826 -

two_rivers said:
so to accept that there is mystery in this life we live, you have to be religious or have faith?


Yes, accepting something without a proof or argument is considered faith.

I liked the moon influencing the tides argument, though.  Not a rigorous scientific argument, but it's metaphorical enough to be mildly persuasive on some level.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: two_rivers]
    #9214197 -

two_rivers said:
it's not that i don't accept skepticism... i admitted that i'm skeptical about all of this as much as anybody else... but to me there is a difference between skepticism and blatant dismissal.


Skepticism eventually turns into blatant dismissal. This is not the first time I've discussed the validity of astrology, and it probably won't be the last, and there hasn't been any new evidence put forward in support of it for as long as I've known about it. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm blatantly dismissing it without thinking about it; the fact is I have thought about it, and now I'm dismissing it.

My arguments aren't meant to be directed at you personally, just astrology in general.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9214222 -

Entropymancer said:
I don't understand what's to be gained by assigning mystery to the category of something that can't be addressed by reasoning and logic. To me, that seems like arrogant ignorance.



i just think there are certain things that can't be proven by physical evidence and for something to be proven in the realm of science you need physical evidence...

i'm surprised you so rigidly endorse physical proof seeing that as you are posting on the shroomery and doubtless have had at least a handful of mushroom trips...

and if there's one thing that tripping tells me is that there is much more to all of this than what we physically can taste, touch, hear, smell, or see.

Quote:
The Cypher said:Yes, accepting something without a proof or argument is considered faith.


ok then, i have faith that i know nothing... better men than me have said it... "all i know, is that i know nothing."

hmm.. but maybe accept was the wrong word..

i'd call it awareness to say that there is mystery in life and a lack of awareness to say that we have it all figured out.


--------------------
:kodama:

Save Shroomerites Anonymous!

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: two_rivers]
    #9214364 -

two_rivers said:
Entropymancer said:
I don't understand what's to be gained by assigning mystery to the category of something that can't be addressed by reasoning and logic. To me, that seems like arrogant ignorance.



i just think there are certain things that can't be proven by physical evidence and for something to be proven in the realm of science you need physical evidence...

i'm surprised you so rigidly endorse physical proof seeing that as you are posting on the shroomery and doubtless have had at least a handful of mushroom trips...

and if there's one thing that tripping tells me is that there is much more to all of this than what we physically can taste, touch, hear, smell, or see.


Sure there is. But if it's something that's real, then there is a way to measure it, whether we've figured out how yet or not.

You say you "think there are certain things that can't be proven by physical evidence". To me, that seems like a very defeatist attitude. :shrug2:

One of the things that I've learned from tripping is that people have a strong desire to ascribe things which result from their internal machinations (subconscious and conscious) to external forces.


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9214394 -

IMO, the problem boils down to the fact that real is a very shaky word, linguistically speaking.

Mental events are de facto more "real" than physical ones, anyway: everything that we can ever know of physical events is filtered in through our sensory perceptions and transmuted into a mental idea.  We can be sure that we're feeling pain--can we be likewise sure that the computer in front of us really exists?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: deCypher]
    #9214469 -

yeah... ok, you both make good points.



...meanwhile, spacemonkey69 is balls deep inside his girlfriend and forgot he even made this thread.


--------------------
:kodama:

Save Shroomerites Anonymous!

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Re: Astrologically Compatible [Re: spacemonkey69]
    #9214985 -
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