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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Phred]
    #9050941 -

Well, as soon as some of those investigations above flesh out into some sort of proof of fraud, then you'll have reports.

I guess I should have known to read my post about 45 times before replying to the semantics master.

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Redstorm]
    #9051007 -

Not semantics. My point was that of course when Dems were caught, they claimed Repubs were doing it, too. Thing is, the reports of Dem fraud were far, FAR more numerous. And a year or two down the road, the convictions were also far, FAR more numerous on the Dem side. I can recall quite a few threads in this forum from the 2004 election about this. I don't recall a single followup post ever of a Repub conviction on voter fraud, but I sure recall seeing many on the Dem side.

This doesn't mean there were zero Repub convictions from the 2004 elections, but it does mean there were damn close to zero, because given the MSM's habit of trumpeting even the most minute Republican misbehavior all over the front pages of the national newspapers for weeks, and given the decidedly anti-Republican makeup of the majority of Political Discussion's denizens, I can guaran-damn-tee you that no Republican convictions for Republican voting shenanigans went unlisted in this forum.




Phred


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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Phred]
    #9051660 -

so is my "direct quote" no longer ironic?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9051685 -

What are you on about now?

Think you might ever get around to tell us the definition of "defaco"? Or even how to pronounce it? Or even just which syllable to accent?






Phred


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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Phred]
    #9051699 -

"de facto" I assume


--------------------

Discuss Politics

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Ferris]
    #9051801 -

I'm not allowed to assume. Whenever I do I am roundly chastised for assigning ulterior motives or putting words in peoples' mouths. I'd better wait for Scavenger to clarify things.






Phred


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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Phred]
    #9051826 -

Phred I don't know if I can accept your outrage w/ re: to ohio.

Since the absentee ballots are not counted untill election day, the vote is considered cast on election day by the supreme court, and this doesn't seem unreasonable.


As a practical matter, it would seem this is much ado about nothing, ignoring the law.  I don't know if Ohio allows inspection of voting registrations, but I'm pretty sure they do, given the republican party's (or at least some people working for the republican party of the state)'s dirty tricks in '04 (perjury to try and get folks disqualified) which demonstrated they had access to the voter addresses.

So all that needs to be done is to challenge the registration.  This is the same process that would occur if the person registered and held onto their absentee ballot till thirty days passed or if they went to the polls on election day.


“Every citizen of the United States, of the age of eighteen years,
who has been a resident of the state, county, township, or ward, such time as may
be provided by law, and has been registered to vote for thirty days, has the
qualifications of an elector, and is entitled to vote at all elections.”

Oh Constitution



There is no explanation of what date the thirty days runs back from except for the refrence to the election.  And since this uses the present tense of vote and elector, I would think that on election day when the ballots are counted you would see if the person had been registered for thirty days, and if so, they are quallified to have their ballot counted. (edited out previous as it seems stupid on retrospect)  As a ballot is not counted untill election day, I would think untill that time it is just a ballot, and not a vote.  Just as a provisional ballot would not be a vote untill inspected and qualified, so too would an absentee ballot not be a vote untill election day comes and it is inspected and tallied.


Since the constittuion doesn't say that people not meeting this requirement aren't quallified, I think that further bolsters that this doesn't violate the constitution.



Quote:
“No person shall be entitled to vote at any election * * * unless the
person is registered as an elector and will have resided in the county and precinct
where the person is registered for at least thirty days at the time of the next
election.”


ORC 3503.06


This seems to suggest that someone is not entitled to vote, per the statutes, if EDIT: UNLESS they meet these requirements.  As someone who submits an absentee ballot 30 days in advance of election day is registered thirty days at the time of the next election, they are entitled to vote at least as far as the statutes go.

Their are other statutes that simply say 30 days but don't mention what that period runs from, so either by reading in pari materia with 3503.06, or simply recognizing the usual rules of statutory construction that a more specific statute governs when a vague and specific statute conflicts, you can support the OH SOS's determination.

Additionally, this statute clearly says you have the right to vote if you meet these requirements.


So since it doesn't violate the constitution, and you are entitled to vote if you have been registered for 30 days at the time of the election, it would seem nothing is amiss.

This whole issue illustrates the problem of idiots writing laws though.  Why couldn't they have been more specific?  What is 'voting'?


Is it handing in an absentee ballot? Mailing it in? Completing it?  Having it counted as a vote, or at least be evaluated as a vote on the statutorily prescribed day?


Anyways, I'm interested in your response.

Edited by johnm214 (10/09/08 01:13 AM)

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: johnm214]
    #9051832 -

I will concede, however; that there is a problem with a vast number of ohio voters, as revealed through the constitution article 5 sec 6:


Quote:
No idiot... shall be entitled to the privileges of an elector.


:sad:

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: johnm214]
    #9051871 -

haha my bad, my point was it reads like a direct quote after your previous rant. Basically I'm saying your going out of your way not to be objective on this matter in your own immature effort to demonize the democrats and revere republicans. Also, you are very transparent in your efforts. Unless you actually believe it, then your just deluded. Not that your the only one, I mostly ignore the electoral mudslinging, electoral fraud just happened to be an area of interest.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: johnm214]
    #9051879 -

Quote:
Phred I don't know if I can accept your outrage w/ re: to ohio.

Since the absentee ballots are not counted untill election day, the vote is considered cast on election day by the supreme court, and this doesn't seem unreasonable.


Again, from the opening post:

"Ohio SecState nuance: "casting ballot" != "voting", so its perfectly fine for any random person to walk up, register and "cast a ballot" on the same day even though state law requires 30 days between registration and voting."

This is an artificial distinction. Whether the vote is counted then and there or not counted till the polls close Nov 4, the ballot has been handed in and unless the voter's name is on it, there is no way to check that it is a legal vote, whether the "checking" is done immediately or on Nov 4.

Quote:
So all that needs to be done is to challenge the registration.


Unless the registration card is stapled to the ballot, thus negating the concept of "secret ballot", how can one be sure the vote/ballot being tossed in the trash is that of an ineligible voter?

And again, I refer you to the opening post:

"Of course, since there's no interlocks or cross checking, anyone could register and "cast a ballot" in multiple locations."

Exactly. I could register as Bob Jenkins at one place, Ray Brown at another, James Wilkinson at a third. All before lunch. And I could do that every day between now and election day. I don't even have to be a resident of Ohio.

Again, from the opening post:

"Of course poll watchers are being turned away and told to fuck off since this is only early voting "ballot casting"."

If everything is above board, why are poll watchers being shooed away?





Phred


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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Phred]
    #9051912 -

First I don't know why observors are being shoed away.  I imagine its some dumb notion that observors intimdate poeple- which may be true.  But so what?  Public records requests intimdate corrupt politicians and the pig patrol too, I don't give a shit. 

This may explain it, I don't know.  There's an appeal pending in the supreme court of Ohio, I think from this sixth circuit opinion but I don't know.  http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/StokesvBrunner.php





Anyways, I agree completely with you regarding the cross checking.  Should be done.  Ohio is idiotic- tis a fact.  You can register to vote with an electric bill- true story, and show up to vote with one.  I'm sure it's impossible to make a photoshop adjustment to an electric bill, but still...  Oops, here's a template.  I think I'll register 500 times under different names once I master the use of the typewriter function in photoshop or MS paint, or foxit, or Adobe Acrobat, or.... http://www.lowermyelectricitybills.com/images/electricitybill1.jpg

I'm not saying the system makes sense, I'm saying the decision to accept absentee ballots in such a way doesn't seem totally unreasonable.  The secretary of state should follow the law.

It seems that you are qualified to vote if you will have been registered for 30 days as of the election.  These people are, so they get to cast their ballot.  I would go so far as to say the definition of voting doesn't matter, as the requirement is that they be qualified as of the election, not when they vote.  See the ORC sec I posted earlier.


Doesn't that make sense, legally?

yes the system is idiotic. Yes, I could make up 500 legally sufficient voter ID's right now with the above utility bill and any number of free editors... yes yes yes.  (and this presumes I use a fake name.  As you state it seems it may be possible to use my real name everywhere in different precincts and defintly in different counties)


I'm just saying the decision seems correct to allow instantaneous absentee casting and registration.

Quote:
Again, from the opening post:

"Ohio SecState nuance: "casting ballot" != "voting", so its perfectly fine for any random person to walk up, register and "cast a ballot" on the same day even though state law requires 30 days between registration and voting."

This is an artificial distinction. Whether the vote is counted then and there or not counted till the polls close Nov 4, the ballot has been handed in and unless the voter's name is on it, there is no way to check that it is a legal vote, whether the "checking" is done immediately or on Nov 4.



Doesn't matter her justification.  If she's right for a wrong reason she's still right.  The court may affirm her decision via any legally sufficient grounds, as it should in a case like this where time is of the essence.

And it doesn't even matter if casting a ballot is voting or not.  The law cited only requires, to have a right to be an elector, that you be registered for 30 days as of the election- not when you vote.

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: johnm214]
    #9051922 -

So, bottom line, you agree the setup in Ohio not only cannot even detect vote fraud (much less prevent it), it practically invites voter fraud?

My job is done, then.





Phred


--------------------

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: Phred]
    #9051931 -

All I was saying was that the decision was in accordance with law.  I'm sure you agree that even stupid laws should be enforced to the letter or stricken from the books. 


leaving bullshit on the books invites discriminatory enforecment.


The SOS's decision was correct.


Ohio sucks.  The laws were written by jackasses who can't string coherent structured thoughts together.


Tis life.

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Re: The shenanigans begin [Re: johnm214]
    #9051979 -

jackasses who can't string coherent structured thoughts together? That's a little harsh maybe they were just idiots who didn't think it through.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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