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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Upanishad, read by Ram Dass
    #8988313 -

That which makes the tongue speak, but which cannot be spoken by the tongue. That alone is God, not what people worship.

That which makes the mind think, but which cannot be thought by the mind. That alone is God, not what people worship.

That which makes the eye see, but which cannot be seen by the eye. That alone is God, not what people worship.

If you think that you know God... you know very little.

All that you can know are ideas and images of God. I do not know God, nor can I say that I don't know it. If you understand the meaning of "I neither know, nor don't know", you understand God. Those who realize that God cannot be known, truly know. Those who claim they know, know nothing. The ignorant think that God can be grasped by the mind. The wise know it beyond knowledge. When you see that God acts through you at every moment, in every movement of mind or body, you attain true freedom. When you realize the truth and cling to nothing in the world, you enter eternal life.

From:
Upanishad, read by Ram Dass.


Thoughts?

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass *DELETED* [Re: Arden]
    #8988438 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8988650 -

Quote:
isn't it funny how truth is more reliant on metabolism, voicing, intonation, timber and suggestion than on content?


Those elements aid in communication and perception and have little bearing on truth.

Any real thoughts on the topic at hand?

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Arden]
    #8988671 -

Arden said:
That which makes the tongue speak, but which cannot be spoken by the tongue. That alone is God, not what people worship.

That which makes the mind think, but which cannot be thought by the mind. That alone is God, not what people worship.

That which makes the eye see, but which cannot be seen by the eye. That alone is God, not what people worship.

If you think that you know God... you know very little.

All that you can know are ideas and images of God. I do not know God, nor can I say that I don't know it. If you understand the meaning of "I neither know, nor don't know", you understand God. Those who realize that God cannot be known, truly know. Those who claim they know, know nothing. The ignorant think that God can be grasped by the mind. The wise know it beyond knowledge. When you see that God acts through you at every moment, in every movement of mind or body, you attain true freedom. When you realize the truth and cling to nothing in the world, you enter eternal life.

From:
Upanishad, read by Ram Dass.


Thoughts?



That's cool shit. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass *DELETED* [Re: Arden]
    #8988676 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8988701 -

Quote:
those thoughts were unreal?


I meant to imply "other" thoughts. It doesn't matter. I didn't mean to start a debate on semantics or the definition of 'real' thoughts. Isn't this thread about the Upanishad?

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Arden]
    #8988968 -

"that which makes the eye see, but can not be seen by the eye"

Beautiful :grin:

I havent read this or the bhagavad gita yet im sure i will one day...

Theres nothing like reading when you know you are what the words are pointing to instead of trying to 'learn'

:aum:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (09/26/08 10:49 AM)

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Chronic7]
    #8988989 -

"If you understand the meaning of "I neither know, nor don't know", you understand God."

It seems to me that if you understand that statement you would understand that you really can't understand God in fullness.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass *DELETED* [Re: Arden]
    #8989002 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: TameMe]
    #8989050 -

Nobody can understand god, as everybody is god.

Usually we understand through the senses, an object sensed & 'understood' but how can you understand yourself when you can't touch hear taste smell or see yourself?

Awareness is beyond understanding as it is beyond the senses & awareness is 'god'

Knowing this, how can we be separate from this awareness?

Isn't awareness there before to even be able to know it?

We can't know awareness we can only BE it, effortlessly, because we are it.

Theres actually no arguement for saying that you are anything other than awareness.

Its not arrogant to think you are god, its arrogant to think you can be anything other than god!

:egyptian:


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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass *DELETED* [Re: Arden]
    #8989066 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8989241 -

Lakefingers said:
Arden said:
Quote:
isn't it funny how truth is more reliant on metabolism, voicing, intonation, timber and suggestion than on content?


Those elements aid in communication and perception and have little bearing on truth.

Any real thoughts on the topic at hand?



little bearing on truth? i doubt most of the people here would have ever discovered these truths if they weren't presented with the flare of drugs, music and white middle-class westerners bringing it back from the east withs sex appeal. presentation when it comes to ram dass's words is everything. ain't too many people running out listening to the homeless, drunkards and nine year olds i hear saying the same basic message.


With this in mind, do you mind presenting this message in your own words, that I may better understand your position?


--------------------

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass *DELETED* [Re: WordlessNature]
    #8989445 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8989669 -

Quote:
little bearing on truth? i doubt most of the people here would have ever discovered these truths if they weren't presented with the flare of drugs, music and white middle-class westerners bringing it back from the east withs sex appeal. presentation when it comes to ram dass's words is everything. ain't too many people running out listening to the homeless, drunkards and nine year olds i hear saying the same basic message.



Again, these factors you speak of have little bearing on truth. Perhaps they are involved with the perception and availability of the message, but ultimately the information remains unchanged. The voice of Ram Dass, despite the fact it may seem more persuasive, is not directly connected to the content of what he is speaking about. Do not confuse the raft with the shore.

Quote:
isn't it just a historical document, a record of thought thousands of years old, a record which remind us that people have for a long time floundered and constantly come back to the insight that words cannot take you everywhere?



If that is how you feel about it, then that is what it is.

But for words not to take us anywhere, I think I understood his point quite well. And if such a belief be true, then people spend a lot of time here apparently going nowhere.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Arden]
    #8989680 -

Quote:
the whole verse is about what the author knows about god.



I didn't get that interpretation.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Lakefingers]
    #8989788 -

Lakefingers said:
you're asking me to use my own words (which i did), and you ask this with three stock clauses? what are you saying?


I'd like to hear what exactly this message is that you hear from so many different sources.

Sorry if I was too vague.


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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: WordlessNature]
    #8990254 -

That which makes the tongue speak, but which cannot be spoken by the tongue. That alone is God, not what people worship.

So who could he be talking about?

That which makes the mind think, but which cannot be thought by the mind. That alone is God, not what people worship.

So who could he be thinking about?

That which makes the eye see, but which cannot be seen by the eye. That alone is God, not what people worship.

And what does he see of this?

If you think that you know God... you know very little.

How does he know?

All that you can know are ideas and images of God. I do not know God, nor can I say that I don't know it. If you understand the meaning of "I neither know, nor don't know", you understand God. Those who realize that God cannot be known, truly know. Those who claim they know, know nothing. The ignorant think that God can be grasped by the mind. The wise know it beyond knowledge. When you see that God acts through you at every moment, in every movement of mind or body, you attain true freedom. When you realize the truth and cling to nothing in the world, you enter eternal life.

Get me right; it is well formulated, artistic, intellectual, and fair. But this is hypnosis; this is preaching. To attempt to announce the nothing is you know is to contradict, to straddle the hypocritical barrier between Man and God. Of course; in the perpetual announcement of hypocrisy, is the hypocrisy any longer valid?

I like hypnosis. I find the power of ideas comes from within the ideas, but the strength of the hypnotist comes from his understanding of them.



Quote:
isn't it funny how truth is more reliant on metabolism, voicing, intonation, timber and suggestion than on content?



The medium is the message. But remember, it's all in the deliverance.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: Arden]
    #8990332 -

Arden said:
The voice of Ram Dass, despite the fact it may seem more persuasive, is not directly connected to the content of what he is speaking about. Do not confuse the raft with the shore.




I like having an intelligent anti-pole.

If the voice he uses to speak the content is not directly connected to it; does this mean the intent is impure?

It seems to me that disseminating messages of the absolute is a subject where the importance of intention approaches the absolute, since the content is so relative. Do you think it would be possible for one to speak words of great absolute meaning; in a persuasive manner; without integrating the context of persuasion with the content of persuasion in one's mind?

There may be rafts afloat on the waters; but here on the land I feel only the continental drift.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8990413 -

Then who are the sharks in the water?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Upanishad, read by Ram Dass [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8990416 -

I think you're misusing the term hypnosis. Firstly, it is not about power since ALL hypnosis is self-hypnosis, and hypnotists are merely guides for subjects to isolate the subconscious mind which is thinly sandwiched between consciousness and the unconscious. There is a semblance of power in metaphor, at least in Milton Erikson's school. I've been trained in a few different schools, and I've been a board certified hypnotherapist for many years.

These words are classically Hindu, deriving ultimately from the Upanishads but historically more recently in the Bhagavad Gita. In both cases, it is mysticism, which is solely about the experience of what is Ultimately Real. If anything, mysticism engages superconsciousness (samadhis, jhanas, satoris, kensho), but not isolated subconsciousness (hypnosis). Eckhart Tolle teaches these concepts, but in his elaboration, it comes across more like the 'Highest Tantra' of Vajrayana Buddhism, Dzogchen.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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