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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Acupuncture
    #8718911 -

I was watching a video explaining the Chinese view of our body's energy system, and the theory behind Qi Gong and Traditional Chinese Medicine. I was struck by being shown photos of open heart surgery using only acupuncture for anesthetic. I had always heard that acupuncture was unsupported scientifically, and was mostly bunk. Some research on the internet brought me to understand that in China it IS accepted science and used routinely and successfully in the treatment of many ills both common and serious. In fact one educational source made the statement:

Quote:
The first surgical procedure performed under “acupuncture anesthesia” was a tonsillectomy. Soon thereafter, as a result of political pressure from Mao Tse Tung, nearly all major and minor surgical procedures took place with acupuncture alone providing the anesthesia. In China currently, however, anesthesiologists limit the use of acupuncture for surgical analgesia predominantly to head and neck surgery, and for selected patients undergoing neurosurgery or cardiothoracic surgery


http://csuvets.colostate.edu/cam/Articlespdf/Acupuncture%20Assisted%20Anesthesia.pdf

After researching it I was convinced that there was some serious element of truth to this practice. I also found that using acupuncture in combination with a calming drug like Valium would allow a patient to leave ICU within hours of an operation instead of days with NO loss of consciousness. So why in our culture are such practices considered garbage. Herbal remedies and energy medicine as well as Qi Gong and Tai Chi are presented as quackery at best. Why are our scientists not researching these practices? The Chinese have been for several decades and have drawn some interesting conclusions. Is having an open mind viewed as equivalent to being stupid to western science?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8718914 -

So why in our culture are such practices considered garbage.

Go back to china where you belong.:thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Icelander]
    #8718918 -

I am outing you as a closet Qi Gong practitioner.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8718939 -

:blush:

I actually had some results with acupuncture and studied acupressure with an acupuncturist from China long ago.

It has some application but is not good for anything and everything as popular western new agey types and practitioners will claim.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8719555 -

I have always been curious about acupuncture, and how it all works,
but have ever come across anyone that has said that it has worked for them (not that I go around asking either)....
Then it becomes one of those out of sight out of mind things until someone mentions it again....

Without word of mouth, how does one find a "good" practitioner of acupuncture, and what should the expectations be for a visit....?
I would not be going for surgery, mind you, but just an overall general tonic, I guess....   
What have you found that acupuncture has brought to you and your life....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8719621 -

Quote:
just an overall general tonic


I believe it is most effectively used for specific maladies...not just overall well being. I have never tried it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8719638 -

At my last DoJang, The Korean Woman who ran it was like a female Mr. Miagi from the Karate kid.

I injured my ankle on the kicking bags and she rushed over and said, "Let me hurt you." I was like, " What?" She pulled out these acupressure needles and first started pressing in a certain part of the side of my hand asking me where it hurt. She found a tender spot that made me jump.

I was like, " It's my ankle that hurts. Why are you messing with my hand?"

As she continued to press a blunt needle (like a pen)into the side of my hand, she explained how parts of the body are connected to others through pressure points. She said, by applying pressure to the pressure point for the area that is hurt, it stimulates blood flow and healing to it.

I got some pain relief with it, even though I think the pain of the acupressure was worse. :lol:

What surprised me was that, there is something to this pressure point connection. Like when I had a bad headache there one day, she pulled out those freaking needles again. She found a spot that hurt like hell to press on between my fingers. Ten minutes of pressure there and the head ache was gone. Weird how it works.

I realize this post is about acupuncture, not acupressure.

There is something to be explored with the general principle behind both.

I was having a bad pain in the ball of my foot for almost a week. I finally had enough and thought to go to the internet to look up a reflexology foot map. Well the spot that hurt was the pressure point for the chest. I had a remaining cough from a cold that just would not go away-months. I worked the pressure point hard for a about an hour. Next day, pain was finally gone in the pressure point and the cough was reduced by about 95%.

:shrug:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8720374 -

Acupuncture is researched extensively in the west. They even have "sham" needles that retract in to the handle so that the patient doesn't know if they're being jabbed or not, to allow blind studies.

But the main issue is that it only works for pain. You can't heal liver cirrhosis with acupuncture, for example. And pain is one thing that was more-or-less solved a long time ago - with the exception of chronic pain, for which acupuncture is being investigated.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: zouden]
    #8720392 -

Well, actually, the Chinese use it in hospitals for a large range of maladies.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8720421 -

Are you certain? Because my understanding is that Western medicine is rapidly being adopted in China and India as they become affordable.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: zouden]
    #8720444 -

I just got done watching a video series on it presented by a Chinese doctor. The practice was pretty well explained. In China they are getting good results by using traditional treatments hand in hand with modern treatments. This often gives them the opportunity to moderate the effects of otherwise harsh drugs and treatments...or even avoid them altogether.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8720737 -

it works for things besides pain
i have seen successful treatment.
it does not work because of energy lines or because of the mumbo jumbo that is used to explain it. the mumbo jumbo is proxy and useful to the practitioner to remember what goes with what. it is just mnemonic.

it works because of how the brain works.
sensory signals create electrical interference patterns on the cortex.
like drops of water spreading energy on the surface of a pond.

this is fundamental to the whole associative processing of memory and cognition.
this is also fundamental to how our motor and sensory cotex processes pain and voluntary movements.

two points stimulated create electrical interference at a midway point on the mapped cortex. that midpoint is the crucial result of 2 needles in acupuncture.
it can do much more than cancel sensation.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8720745 -

The western analysis I have read says that it is useful for some select conditions such as nausea but that it is hard to seperate the effects from placebo (much like hypnosis).

Per your question of why we aren't researchiing it, probably because we don't have the scientific paradigm to expand on the basics. What the hell am I going to study if i am a med student? Don't worry, I will read plenty of new age books before I cut you open and poke needles in you. :shrug:

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Epigallo]
    #8720954 -

study brain


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8721409 -

i realized your post completely negated my point as soon as I saw it  :foreheadslap:

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Epigallo]
    #8721444 -

This is garbage, don't believe this mumbojumbo

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Epigallo]
    #8722856 -

Quote:
it is hard to seperate the effects from placebo


I would be interested to see if open heart surgery could be performed with a placebo.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8722940 -

It can't. But it can be performed with hypnotism in place of anaesthetic (it's been done once).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8723013 -

i have seen successful treatment.

This doesn't really count now does it. I also read it works in the Bible. Does that count?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Acupuncture [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8723014 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
it is hard to seperate the effects from placebo


I would be interested to see if open heart surgery could be performed with a placebo.


I believe that could be done. placebo is stronger then any medicine IMO. But getting it to work is a personal matter.

If these techniques are so great they should/could be substantiated without doubt like gravity. Yet they continue to be controversial. IMO that is not a good sign.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (08/04/08 07:13 AM)

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