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Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money
    #8646094 -

This is a video I found a while back, which was really interesting.  It's kind of long at 40 minutes total running time, but really informative.  I think everyone should know how our money system works.

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The video is a 5 part series.  The first three parts are objective, while the fourth and fith parts start throwing in some opinions.

Personally, I think the Federal Reserve System is one huge injustice.  It needs to be nationalized, first of all, since us taxpayers are the ones financing its operations.  Then it needs to be reformed.  A money system that loans money and collects interest cannot operate indefinitley.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8646319 -

Quote:
Personally, I think the Federal Reserve System is one huge injustice.  It needs to be nationalized, first of all, since us taxpayers are the ones financing its operations.  Then it needs to be reformed.  A money system that loans money and collects interest cannot operate indefinitley.



NATIONALIZED? Because a completely government-run organization, rather than simply the quasi-public organization that exists today, will be worlds better.

No, the Federal Reserve needs to be abolished, replaced by absolutely nothing as far as a central bank goes. The country should be put back on a commodity standard, likely gold, sooner rather than later if we're to avoid a seriously 'hard landing'.

The Federal Reserve system is responsible for monetary inflation, which is to say, the continued erosion of the purchasing power of our currency. This is nothing less than a regressive tax on every single American, and a particularly insidious tax as it is done furtively -- hardly anyone realizes what has happened or why it has happened.

Moreover, the Federal Reserve is responsible for the business cycle, for the booms and busts that people associate with modern capitalism that are, in fact, NOT endemic to capitalism. Rather, they are the result of the Fed artificially lowering interest rates, unnaturally spurring business to chug along (the boom), and then raising rates and tightening credit, causing many of those business that should not have come to pass in the first place to go broke (the bust).

I've long said, if people understood the magnitude of the Federal Reserve scam, there would be a revolution tomorrow. It is pernicious and perfidious and needs to be destroyed.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8646393 -

I say it needs to be nationalized because the American people know very little of its secretive nature.  We need to take control of the institution and open it up.  Give it transparency and let the public see what's going on.

I agree that the institution needs to be dismantled and pretty much every other point you made, but how can it be done?  The central bankers that essentially control this country aren't giving up power any time soon.  At least if it were government run, we, the voters, would have some say in how monetary policy worked.

Abolishing the FRS and reinstating a gold standard seem like the best courses of action for this economy, but I have to admit that I'm ignorant when it comes to how it can be accomplished.  My thoughts were that taking control of the central bank would be the first logical step.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8646515 -

Okay, so after thinking about it a little, I came to the conclusion that nationalizing it would be abolishing it - not in the sense of eliminating the system, but abolishing it as we know it. 

Seven out of ten of the top shareholders are foreigners.  In other words, the best interests of the Fed doesn't lie with the US and its citizens, it lies with the private, foreign, central bankers that run it. 

When the government needs a shitload of money, it goes to the Fed, but the US gov doesn't get that money as a gift.  It has to pay it back and, like all loans, it has to pay it back with interest. 

So by nationalizing the Fed, we would firstly make it our system operated for our interests and we would eliminate billions upon billions in wasted tax dollars that go towards paying interest on loans to the Fed.  Thus, it would stop those rat-bastards from getting rich off of our backs.

Once it's our money system, then we could change the way it works.  Like by backing FRNs with gold, for instance.

What do you think?


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8646574 -

"Seven out of ten of the top shareholders are foreigners."


jesus....


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8647275 -

Fractional reserve banking!?  Debt based currency?  Come on, it can't be that bad.  It got America to where it is now:  the beacon of freedom for the free world.

Without your Fed, how will you pay the massive cost for your strategic bombers to spread your freedom around the world?


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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Minstrel]
    #8647331 -

Well, you do have a point.  We definatley wouldn't be able to expand our economy like we have without a debt based system because with a gold standard, there's just never enough money to go around.

However, whether us expanding as fast as we have and as much as we do is a good thing is another topic to debate.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8647380 -

pothead_bob said:
Well, you do have a point.  We definatley wouldn't be able to expand our economy like we have without a debt based system because with a gold standard, there's just never enough money to go around.

However, whether us expanding as fast as we have and as much as we do is a good thing is another topic to debate.


This is all economic garbage. So long as the price of gold (or whatever the medium of exchange is) is allowed to fluctuate freely, there will always be 'enough money to go around.'

Can you actually elaborate upon and explain your point, or are you just repeating some bromide you heard somewhere?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8647529 -

Ancalagon said:
So long as the price of gold (or whatever the medium of exchange is) is allowed to fluctuate freely, there will always be 'enough money to go around.'



Uhhhhh what? this doesnt make much sense.

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: buckwheat]
    #8647605 -

yea dude do YOU even know what your talking about. For one moving to the gold standard would be expansive and take a long time and inflate the price of gold (a metal commonly used in electronics) for the time it takes to recuperate gold stocks + a couple of years. If the Fed tried to even go back into a divested precious metals backed currency (much safer/easier than just gold) it would still spike commodity prices and create a recession. Nobody wants the Fed to go bankrupt so the debt based economy may have to cool down but it shouldn't be crashed. Having an unbacked debt based currency is probibly safer than having a backed one, since there is a realization that it is a house of cards and there is no safety net is an incentive not to crash the economy for all of the banking participents.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: buckwheat]
    #8647626 -

buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
So long as the price of gold (or whatever the medium of exchange is) is allowed to fluctuate freely, there will always be 'enough money to go around.'



Uhhhhh what? this doesnt make much sense.


Do you actually understand the original point made? If so, explain it. I need something to work with here; if you guys are just spouting things you heard in high-school economics class I need to know that before I can elucidate my point further.

WHY does the economy need an ever-increasing supply of paper dollars?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8647654 -

ScavengerType said:
yea dude do YOU even know what your talking about. For one moving to the gold standard would be expansive and take a long time and inflate the price of gold (a metal commonly used in electronics) for the time it takes to recuperate gold stocks + a couple of years. If the Fed tried to even go back into a divested precious metals backed currency (much safer/easier than just gold) it would still spike commodity prices and create a recession. Nobody wants the Fed to go bankrupt so the debt based economy may have to cool down but it shouldn't be crashed. Having an unbacked debt based currency is probibly safer than having a backed one, since there is a realization that it is a house of cards and there is no safety net is an incentive not to crash the economy for all of the banking participents.


So basically what you're saying is, this inefficient and GROSSLY immoral system is far too well entrenched, so we may as well ride it out.

Smarter people than you and I believe we could transition back to a market-based money without the kind of excruciating pain you describe. And guess what: pain is happening anyways. It's happened in the past as a result of this system; it's happening now as the result of this system; and it will continue to happen as a result of this system until one day the money simply has no value anymore.

Here's a good start: Allow competing currencies; end legal tender laws and allow contracts and sales to be carried out in denominations other than dollars (be they gold, silver, Euros, Yen, whatever). Another good start: Have the Fed stop printing new money (or removing old money). That, at least, will end the monetary inflation of the dollar.

Again, you fret over a recession resulting from the return to a commodity-backed medium of exchange, yet you (a) don't substantiate that particular claim, and (b) fail to note that we are currently in, or on the cusp of, a not-so-mild recession, we have experienced countless others since the founding of the Fed (INCLUDING THE GREAT DEPRESSION), and will continue to experience more.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8647657 -

Ancalagon said:
WHY does the economy need an ever-increasing supply of paper dollars?


Because the economy is ever increasing?

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8647662 -

Maybe what has to happen is a fundamental shift in what we value.  I'm not sure if I can think one thing to be better than another, be it paper dollars or gold.  After all, the world is full of things.:royalrainbow:  Money, as we use it, is at best a physical representation of time.  As it stands, one dollar is equal to about 20 minutes of a serf's time.    These dollars are a very sad thing.  Use them to acquire more things.  They can't get me what I really value, but I do need them to keep me alive.  It's a chain.  More dollars means a long chain.

We still need a reliable and free way to get accomplish trade.


--------------------

Edited by Minstrel (07/17/08 05:53 PM)

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: buckwheat]
    #8647668 -

buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
WHY does the economy need an ever-increasing supply of paper dollars?


Because the economy is ever increasing?


And should there be less money when the economy is decreasing, during a recession. Should the money supply stay constant when the economy is stagnant?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8647686 -

If the money system works the way I understand, Ancalagon aught to be right.  Since every dollar in circulation represents a debt to someone else (+ intrest), once every debt is paid off, those dollars must come back.


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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8647724 -

Ancalagon said:
buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
WHY does the economy need an ever-increasing supply of paper dollars?


Because the economy is ever increasing?


And should there be less money when the economy is decreasing, during a recession. Should the money supply stay constant when the economy is stagnant?


That depends might need more money to beat deflation thats the entire point of fiat.

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Minstrel]
    #8647752 -

Minstrel said:
Maybe what has to happen is a fundamental shift in what we value.  I'm not sure if I can think one thing to be better than another, be it paper dollars or gold.  After all, the world is full of things.:royalrainbow:  Money, as we use it, is at best a physical representation of time.  As it stands, one dollar is equal to about 20 minutes of a serf's time.    These dollars are a very sad thing.  Use them to acquire more things.  They can't get me what I really value, but I do need them to keep me alive.

We still need a reliable and free way to get accomplish trade.


I don't advocate a gold standard because I love the smell of gold or the touch of gold or the taste of gold. I don't personally own any gold. What I advocate is a market standard, which is to say, money -- the medium of exchange -- should arise naturally in the marketplace, just as computers, shoes, and haircuts do. The fact of the matter is that before the imposition of paper moneys, gold was wildly held as the medium of exchange. If you don't know a great deal about this topic, read the following few paragraphs (that I wrote in another context), I promise they'll be worth your while:

Imagine a society just coming together. A few farmsteads start having dealings with each other. Some farmers are better at some things and others are better at other things. If Farmer Joe wants Farmer Ted's chickens, and Farmer Joe has an excess of wheat, he can offer some wheat in exchange for Ted's chickens. Ted may agree to this; but he also may not. After all, if Ted doesn't want Joe's wheat, and he knows that none of the other farmers do either (that is, he can't turn around and trade that wheat for something he does want), then the wheat is useless to him. So we see that this system, called barter, is pretty inefficient (though it's certainly better than no trade at all; after all -- and this is crucial -- people would not, ever, trade with each other unless they believed the trade would be beneficial).

It will come to pass, after communities grow and more trading takes place, that a good will tend to predominate as a medium of exchange. That is, the members of the community will come to recognize that pretty much everyone wants this one good. Thus, they will realize, they can trade their surplus goods for that good (rather than for what they want directly), and then turn around and trade that good for what they want. This is called indirect exchange.

That intermediary good -- a medium of exchange -- has been many things throughout history: cigarettes in POW camps; shells; beads; etc. Most prominently, however, it has been gold and silver. The reasons for this are that those precious metals are divisible, non-perishable, a good store of value, and other reasons.

So, to cut this lesson short, we see that money -- at base -- was simply the good that people thought they would be best able to exchange for other goods. Carrying around gold and silver bars and coins is unwieldy, of course -- especially for big payments. So warehouses (banks) came about that would store your gold and silver and issue you paper notes that represented claims on a fixed quantity of metals.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: buckwheat]
    #8647777 -

buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
WHY does the economy need an ever-increasing supply of paper dollars?


Because the economy is ever increasing?


And should there be less money when the economy is decreasing, during a recession. Should the money supply stay constant when the economy is stagnant?


That depends might need more money to beat deflation thats the entire point of fiat.


Heh, the deflation that occurs during economic downturns is not something to be beaten; that mode of thinking is what led President Roosevelt to enact some of the lunacy he enacted, and in so doing prolong the depression a great many years. Falling prices during economic downturns are a positive good. And the economic downturns themselves are CAUSED by the central bank that I am railing against.

You said above money should be expanded because the economy is ever-growing. That's wrong at base; the economy is not ever-growing. So you're now saying the money supply need be expanded regardless of whether or not the economy is growing or shrinking.

Can you explain to me WHY it is that the money supply needs to be expanded?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Federal Reserve System and Fiat Money [Re: Ancalagon]
    #8647836 -

Ancalagon said:
buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
buckwheat said:
Ancalagon said:
WHY does the economy need an ever-increasing supply of paper dollars?


Because the economy is ever increasing?


And should there be less money when the economy is decreasing, during a recession. Should the money supply stay constant when the economy is stagnant?


That depends might need more money to beat deflation thats the entire point of fiat.


Heh, the deflation that occurs during economic downturns is not something to be beaten; that mode of thinking is what led President Roosevelt to enact some of the lunacy he enacted, and in so doing prolong the depression a great many years. Falling prices during economic downturns are a positive good. And the economic downturns themselves are CAUSED by the central bank that I am railing against.

You said above money should be expanded because the economy is ever-growing. That's wrong at base; the economy is not ever-growing. So you're now saying the money supply need be expanded regardless of whether or not the economy is growing or shrinking.

Can you explain to me WHY it is that the money supply needs to be expanded?



Because there is a increased demand for it because of growth because it hasnt stopped growing. Which causes deflation unless you can keep up with demand. Thats the whole reason we changed got off the gold standard is because gold based currency couldn't keep up with the demand or growth.

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