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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??...
    #3542013 - 12/25/04 01:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

for every liberal trying to understand the success and popularity of the radical right..there is a website with a different answer..which may be aliens..ufos'..illuminati..diebold..haliburton..the assembly of clods..etc...i have another hunch.. that being that the answer their looking for is simply just inflation...

inflation is when theres too many fiat paper dollars chasing after too few goods (store-of-value)...to prevent this (without reverting to a gold standard)..it is necessary to both increase the store-of-value wherever possible..and to decrease its net rate of consumption (depreciation)...inflation occurs when paper money is spent on pure consumable goods whose loss to consumption cannot be recovered as new production.. this is referred to as "inflationary spending"...drugs..alcohol..and tobacco are all inflationary spending..as are the bulk of healthcare costs...

my hunch that bushism is about controlling inflation is based on what i view as three(3) main pillars of bush policy (collectively known loosely as the "war on terrorism")..and their intended anti-inflationary effects ..

1) military expansionism ..increase the store-of-value by adding spoils of war...this obviously hasnt panned out yet in iraq..but the neocons are far from abandoning this strategy either...

2) pauperogenics ..the govt works with private industry to push as many ppl into minimum-wage jobs as possible...this preserves the store-of-value by severely limiting the amount of cash available for inflationary spending...

some would argue..correctly..that this is actually a form of inflation in and of itself...unlike conventional inflation..however..it has the advantage of not triggering a spiral of both inflationary and non-inflationary spending as consumers rush to beat the next price increase...

3) police state ..assert constant surveillance and control over the population in order to curtail unauthorized inflationary spending..most notably drugs (which can also aggravate the even more inflationary healthcare tab).. again preserving the store-of-value...

this includes the use of rape and torture as deterrence..which has so far been limited to the POWs from item 1) above..but will likely spread.. the threat conventional punishment having failed to deter drug use...

inflation is at its best taxation without representation..and at its worst a retroactive form of slavery...as such..americans view inflation not merely as an economic malaise..but rather as a deep spiritual affliction that warrants any degree of brutality needed to stop it..including the "war on terrorism"...nor are they by any means wrong either..the deleterious effects of inflation are in fact a tremendous insult to individual liberties...in that sense..bush is telling the truth when he says that his policies are "defending freedom"...

bush is more open to criticism..however..on his contrivance of the "war on terrorism" cover..as well as some other very obvious misinformation...and personally..i would respect bush alot more if would just tell the truth as to why fascism may be necessary...

any thoughtful comments will be appreciated...thx...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3542074 - 12/25/04 02:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Inflation of fiat currency has nothing to do with the ratio of durable goods purchased to consumable goods purchased. Nor does it have anything to do with "velocity" -- the number of times a given dollar changes hands in a given period.

Inflation of fiat currency (as opposed to a rising cost of living -- please note the two phenomena are not equivalent) is purely a function of the amount of currency vs the amount of goods and services available. If the number of dollars printed doubles in relation to a fixed amount of product (goods and services), then prices double. If the amount of currency remains constant while the amount of product doubles, prices are halved (deflation). The price adjustment process is of course not instantaneous, but it is inevitable.

It makes no difference -- inflationwise -- if the product is consumed immediately (a hot dog at a ballpark, for example) or if the product is as ephemeral as a ticket to the ballgame at which the hot dog is consumed, or if the product is used to create more products (an injection-molding machine, for example). As long as the ratio of dollars to product -- any product -- remains constant, there is no inflation.

I believe you may have confused the term "inflationary spending" with the proper term for the purchase of luxuries such as alcohol and tobacco and other non-essentials -- "discretionary spending".


pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Phred]
    #3542126 - 12/25/04 02:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Inflation of fiat currency (as opposed to a rising cost of living -- please note the two phenomena are not equivalent) is purely a function of the amount of currency vs the amount of goods and services available. If the number of dollars printed doubles in relation to a fixed amount of product (goods and services), then prices double.




thats pretty much what i said...for example..suppose that in some fictitious economy..50% of the store-of-value (goods and services) is marijuana..and there is a total of $X paper dollars...with all else being equal..the price of everything else will double after all the pot has been smoked...

of course in the real world..there will be a new harvest of pot to replace what was smoked..so the store-of-value doesnt change (assuming no loss of productivity that results from drug use)...even so..the drug use will still cause inflationary losses due primarily to increased medical costs..which is the most inflationary of all spending...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3543767 - 12/26/04 08:44 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

of course in the real world..there will be a new harvest of pot to replace what was smoked..so the store-of-value doesnt change (assuming no loss of productivity that results from drug use).

And of course in the real world the store-of-value doesn't change when a hot dog is consumed or a roll of toilet paper is used or an airplane ticket expires. In the real world, inflation of fiat currency -- which is the topic you introduced -- is not caused by consuming food, booze, cigarettes, newspapers, etc. faster than they can be replaced but by cranking up the government printing presses.

It is true that if (for example) heavy frost kills off Brazil's coffee crop in a particular year, the store-of-goods in that year will be smaller than usual due to the coffee which was consumed in that year not being completely replaced. But that doesn't mean everything you buy from now on will cost more -- as is the case with inflation of fiat currency -- it just means that for the next little while you'll pay more for coffee than you used to. That is not inflation of fiat currency, it is a rise in the cost of living -- presuming you are a coffee drinker. If you aren't, your cost of living remains unchanged.


pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Phred]
    #3543953 - 12/26/04 12:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

whether or not you choose to call it "inflation of fiat currency"..i think we can still agree that bush can be construed as trying to slow the consumption of wealth..and that doing so will prevent devaluation of the dollar which may not "inflation of fiat currency" in the strictest sense...this is further shown by proposals to eliminate the IRS and add a 24% national sales tax...

but..in the case of medical costs..which can be aggravated by drug use..then it is cranking up the govt printing presses..since those costs are necessarily being monetized..even in a completely private healthcare system...what bush doesnt realize is that even if big brother succeeds in eliminating such costs..the stress of living under the regime will also generate new healthcare costs...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3543995 - 12/26/04 01:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

whether or not you choose to call it "inflation of fiat currency"..

It was you who chose to call it that --
Quote:

"inflation is when theres too many fiat paper dollars chasing after too few goods (store-of-value)inflation is when theres too many fiat paper dollars chasing after too few goods (store-of-value)"

and --

"inflation occurs when paper money is spent on pure consumable goods whose loss to consumption cannot be recovered as new production.. this is referred to as "inflationary spending"




Both statements are incorrect.

..i think we can still agree that bush can be construed as trying to slow the consumption of wealth..

Then you think incorrectly.

Bush is doing nothing to stop people from buying what they want -- be it consumable goods or permanent goods such as houses.

..and that doing so will prevent devaluation of the dollar which may not "inflation of fiat currency" in the strictest sense...

The dollar is not losing value because people are buying more stuff than they were able to before Bush took office. That's not how it works. I strongly suggest you take the time to read an introductory text on economics. May I suggest "Economics in one Lesson" by Henry Hazlett as a first read?

...this is further shown by proposals to eliminate the IRS and add a 24% national sales tax...

The Fair Tax System would be of enormous benefit to everyone except those currently employed by the IRS and as tax lawyers. It would be of particular benefit to the poor. Unfortunately, I can't see Bush mustering enough support for it in Congress to get it passed during his term.

As for health care costs contributing to either fiat money inflation or to the devaluation of the US dollar, that factor has no more effect on either than any of the other things you've mentioned. I repeat, read a decent introductory economics text and get back to us.

Rising health care costs do however effect how many taxpayer dollars must be seized from peaceful citizens to pay for government-funded health programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. The solution to that particular problem is for government to get out of the health care business as rapidly and completely as possible.

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Phred]
    #3544087 - 12/26/04 01:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Fair Tax System would be of enormous benefit to everyone except those currently employed by the IRS and as tax lawyers. It would be of particular benefit to the poor. Unfortunately, I can't see Bush mustering enough support for it in Congress to get it passed during his term.




:rotfl:

any economist in the world will tell that sales taxes like that are inherantly regressive in the first place...not to mention that ppl who are now in the 10% bracket will effectively be taxed at 24%..since they typically have very little available to save...your in a shaky position at best to tell someone to read an economics textbook..especially when bush calls it a "fair tax system".. kind of like the "healthy forest act"...

Quote:

As for health care costs contributing to either fiat money inflation or to the devaluation of the US dollar, that factor has no more effect on either than any of the other things you've mentioned. I repeat, read a decent introductory economics text and get back to us.

Rising health care costs do however effect how many taxpayer dollars must be seized from peaceful citizens to pay for government-funded health programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. The solution to that particular problem is for government to get out of the health care business as rapidly and completely as possible.




it doesnt matter if theres medicare or not...when the bill is paid..there has to be cash to pay it..which comes off govt printing presses..irregardless of whos' actually footing the bill...


--------------------


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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3547267 - 12/27/04 09:25 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

any economist in the world will tell that sales taxes like that are inherantly regressive in the first place...

Wrong yet again. You are on a roll. There are many economists who wouldn't use the term "regressive" to describe a user-pay tax. That is a term invented by proponents of a "progressive" income tax. Furthermore, the Fair Tax System is not merely a national sales tax but a program also involving rebates to every American for the tax paid on necessities of life. It has been independently demonstrated by many analysts working from the same data that under the proposed Fair Tax system, the "poor" in America would be better off financially than they are today. Once again I suggest you read some economics texts and read a bit about the proposed Fair Tax System before continuing. You are arguing from a position of ignorance at the moment.

..especially when bush calls it a "fair tax system"..

Bush neither devised the system nor did he name it. It's been kicking around for many years.

when the bill is paid..there has to be cash to pay it..which comes off govt printing presses..irregardless of whos' actually footing the bill...

That is my point exactly. If the government chooses to obtain the currency needed to pay the costs of healthcare not through collecting more taxes but instead through cranking up the printing presses, then there is of course inflation of fiat currency. If on the other hand they choose to pay by increasing taxes, there is an increase in the cost of living. As I pointed out earlier, an increase in tax rate (leading to an increase in the cost of living) is not the same thing as inflation of fiat currency.


pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: devils' advocate thread .."war on terrorism"==war on inflation??... [Re: Phred]
    #3548144 - 12/27/04 03:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


There are many economists who wouldn't use the term "regressive" to describe a user-pay tax.
***
It has been independently demonstrated by many analysts working from the same data that under the proposed Fair Tax system, the "poor" in America would be better off financially than they are today.




sources? (other than those sponsored by republican activists)...read the link ..

Quote:

An example of why sales tax is regressive.

If progressive taxes soak the rich, and regressive taxes soak the poor, why do we almost never hear the term, "soak the poor"? Perhaps that is a "loaded" question?

Let's imagine two frugal traveling salesmen. They each have to buy a new car every four years to (say) keep up appearances, and they need reliable transportation.
(One guy makes 20K, the other 300K)
Run the numbers on a the RATE of total income each pays on on 5% sales tax.

Poor Boy buys a $20,000 car pays $1000 or 5.0% of his income.
Rich Boy buys a $60,000 car pays $3000 or 1.0% of his income.

Poor Boy has 5 times the tax bite, or rate of tax on a car. Rich Boy hardly feels sales taxes.

Then run the numbers on a $30 pair of Levis, and the tax rate discrepancy triples.
Sales tax is NOT a flat tax.




the definition of a regressive tax..from wikipedia ..

Quote:

A regressive tax is a tax which takes a larger percentage of income from people whose income is low. It places proportionately more of a burden on those with lower incomes. Regressive taxes, as opposed to progressive taxes, are more burdensome on lower-income individuals than on higher-income individuals and corporations.




you have been mathematically proven wrong...

Quote:

You are arguing from a position of ignorance at the moment.




if thats so..then ignorance is strength...but for those of us who dont think in orwellian doublespeak..ignorance means someone that thinks
the "clear skies act" is meant to clear the skies of something other than birds.. or that the "healthy forests act" will slow deforestation.. or that the "fair tax act" means that the rich will pay proportionately more (and that it could still be "fair" otherwise).. who always talk about how great tax cuts are..except for the poor..who in their minds would be better off with a tax hike...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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