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Offlinecb9fl
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Banking institutions
    #3887785 - 03/08/05 04:38 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

I was reading some Thomas Jefferson quotes and I came upon this one:

Quote:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

* Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802) ; later published in The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill (1809)




How does this apply to our current currency? I thought our dollar was printed by a private company, is that true?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: cb9fl]
    #3887821 - 03/08/05 04:45 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

A private company called the Federal Reserve, misleadingly enough.

From http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/

THE BANKING SCAM

The following system was installed in 1913 with the ratification of the income tax amendment (the sixteenth amendment) and the passage of the Federal Reserve Act. Both of these were spearheaded by Senator Nelson Aldrich, the maternal grandfather of David Rockefeller, under the guidance of the House of Rothschild. The Federal Reserve Act was drafted by Paul Warburg, a Rothschild intimate. In a Thanksgiving 1910 secret meeting on Jekyll Island, Georgia, the establishment's leaders met and agreed to the plan. The system was not fully enabled until the passage of the Banking Act of 1933, the precipitous passage of which was overseen by FDR's treasury secretary William Woodin and an armada of private bankers (more on this shortly). Full fiat central banking was realized in 1971 when President Nixon removed all semblance of a gold standard for Federal Reserve funds.

Money is created by monetary loans from the Federal Reserve System (the Fed) to the United States, and by the fractional reserve banking system. The fractional reserve system works as follows: banks promise delivery of balances to depositors and borrowers many times the amount of money on simultaneous deposit, so that checks and other instruments of bank-account-level monetary transfer in circulation drawn on these accounts, denominated in the same monetary units as the common currency, increase the total amount of money. A bank's minimum ratio of deposits on hand and deliverable (as Federal Reserve Notes, coins, or in some systems, precious metals) to total bank debts embodied in positive account balances, is set by the Federal Reserve, and is called the reserve ratio. Fractional banking is the principal mechanism by which money has been created in the US in the 20th century, and it is a form of institutionalized fraud that puts private bankers in a position to command the economy.

The other mechanism by which money is created is that practiced by the Federal Reserve itself. The US assigns to the Fed bonds (representing the amount borrowed, and earning interest at a rate set by the Fed), the Fed assigns the US a corresponding balance, in what amounts to a bank account from which the government can make withdrawls or draw checks. This is an exchange, and often the bonds are actually purchased from private banks that previously bought them directly or indirectly from the government (loaning money to the government), creating a balance in a Fed account payable to that private bank. Some of this balance is turned into actual paper money when an entity with a Fed account balance (a private bank or the government) requests that some portion of that balance be converted to paper money. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (part of the government) then cranks the presses, creating Federal Reserve Notes, and the paper money is physically delivered. The money is no more or less real in electronic form than in printed form. Most money is ephemeral, moved around using Electronic Funds Transfer and the like, and EFT money can be turned into paper Federal Reserve Notes at any ATM. EFT and paper money are totally fungible (interchangeable).

The Fed has no significant assets other than its portfolio of US government securities - insofar as they can be considered assets at all; their productivity is all "on paper" hocus pocus. This begs the question. The balance in that bank account is just made up, as directed by the Federal Open Market Committee. The designation of the FOMC's twelve voting members (the seven Presidentially appointed and Senate-confirmed members of the Board of Governors, the president of the New York regional bank, and the presidents of a rotating subset of four other regional banks: currently, the presidents of the Dallas, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Minneapolis Federal Reserve regional banks) is controlled by the President (in modern times, perpetually an instrument of the private bankers, and directly by private (``member'') banks located in the regions covered by each Federal Reserve regional bank, with the influence of each on the election of its region's president proportional to its size. Moreover, the FOMC's operations are not subject to external audit. All of this - excepting, of course, the control of the the Presidency by private bankers - is by statute.

When the FOMC orders money into existence, the value of the money that existed before that order is reduced, as a consequence of the law of supply and demand. The value of a quantum (a unit) falls when M1 (the on-demand liquid money supply) grows (is "inflated"). When this happens, wealth in private hands denominated in the units of the inflated money, whether on paper, in minted coins, or in some electronic form, is quietly redistributed to the people who control the money ordered into existence. The controllers are the private banks and the federal government - evidently, a monolith; there is no clear boundary between them. Even though other forces - improvements in industrial efficiency and productivity, for example - can increase the buying power of a monetary unit, the redistribution of wealth is not thereby made less certain or real, nor less grave in its import.

Since the Fed trades non-interest-earning money for interest-earning bonds, the system tends to inflate the money supply essentially eternally, in a quiet, endless campaign of wealth confiscation from the public, in order that the government can honor the bonds held by the Fed. That the Fed's profits are assigned to the Treasury does not change this, and since the two are just components of a single monolith, it's really just a change of pocket, not a change of pants.

That portion of the mature debt that is not honored through inflation is honored by taxation, mostly by income taxation, which of course is widely recognized as confiscatory prima facie. Income taxation is usually set as high as is politically feasible.

When debts are retired by income taxation, the money supply contracts, increasing the value of a quantum. This is because the Fed throws away money it is paid - which, of course, is no less unreasonable than making up money to pay out. With income taxation, wealth is redistributed from those who pay taxes to those who do not (notably, ``philanthropic'' foundations), without any explicit pay-out. Importantly, the architecture of the system necessarily inflates the money supply whenever debts are retired by means other than taxation, and inflation is no less clearly confiscatory than is explicit income taxation itself. That is, one way or the other, intrinsic to the architecture, wealth is confiscated from the public. Even the presumption of a benevolent FOMC cannot avoid this - only retirement of the entire national debt (over $6 trillion, or about $20000 per human living in the United States), proscription of deficit spending, deprecation of income (and sales and property) taxation, and cessation of so-called Federal Open Market activities, can end the cycle of theft.

The total engine pumps vast wealth from the productive public to the unproductive government/banking monolith, placing that monolith in a position of absolutely dominant power in the economy, and hence in the society. The monolith systematically redistributes wealth from those it disfavors to those it favors, and it favors those people and processes that its members expect to maintain and consolidate the existing power structure. The actual taxation and spending patterns are defined by that lumbering committee known as Congress, and consist principally of capital purchases, salaries, commercial contracts for delivery of products and performance of services, and entitlements.

Several quotes underscore the scam:

``By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens...''
-John Maynard Keynes

``In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value.''
-Alan Greenspan, 1967

Keynes is the father of the activist monetary policy that is in practice today in the industrialized world. Greenspan, of course, is the current chairman of the Federal Reserve and of the FOMC.

``The Federal Reserve Banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this Nation is run by the International Bankers.''
-Congressman Louis T. McFadden

``...From now on depressions will be scientifically created.''
-Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr., 1913, on the Federal Reserve Act

``We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon.''
-Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Banking institutions [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3888074 - 03/08/05 05:51 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Is there any way you could put that in simpler terms while still describing the situation?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: cb9fl]
    #3888097 - 03/08/05 05:56 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Is there any way you could put that in simpler terms while still describing the situation?



The Federal Reserve cheats people out of their savings through inflationary policies.


--------------------


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Silversoul]
    #3888283 - 03/08/05 06:27 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

I give America another 10-25 years


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Silversoul]
    #3888354 - 03/08/05 06:36 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

I knew I was going to get an answer like that which isn't what I wanted. I would like to understand the process if possible.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: cb9fl]
    #3888397 - 03/08/05 06:42 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Why do you need it in "simpler terms." Pouzzner says it better than I can.


--------------------


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3888668 - 03/08/05 07:35 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

SWEDEN said:
I give America another 10-25 years




LOL, america has been in much worse economic trouble than it is in today. It is just way overblown by liberals and arm chair investors.

The system is complex. People freak out because money was once backed up by precious metals, etc. and it is moving away from that. However, there is still an economy of immense value and potential, that is really the basis of the value of our money. People try to attack the way the system is run by saying value is just made up and it doesn't exist but they are just bending the truth and leaving out important economic aspects on purpose.

America pumps out goods and services and this is worth something, it gives our economy and our money the same value that gold or any other commodity gives. The only "risk" of the system is that this value is in the hands of the people instead of the government but I would rather have this system than the alternative any day.


Edited by Catalysis (03/08/05 07:47 PM)


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Catalysis]
    #3888700 - 03/08/05 07:41 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Suggestion, never ask someone to regurgitate information for you, research it yourself, preferably from several sources from different positions.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Catalysis]
    #3888741 - 03/08/05 07:51 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
LOL, america has been in much worse economic trouble than it is in today.



Please tell us when the U.S. has been more vulnerable to an economic downturn. When has there been more consumer debt? When has there been a lower savings rate? When has there been more government debt? When has there been a greater percentage of government debt held by foreign countries? How does the U.S. trade deficit compare to other periods in our history? When has there been a greater amount of unfunded liabilities? What is it that you know about the U.S. dollar that Warren Buffet doesn't?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3888811 - 03/08/05 08:05 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

I guess I just have a hard time buying all these numbers, percentages, and 3-year charts as sure signs that America will somehow no longer exist in 10 years. When has our economy been this large? Are all of these numbers being looked at proportionally or are they just being thrown in our faces out of context? When has the population been this large? I agree we are obviously in an economic downturn but I stick with my previous statement that it is way overblown.

Quote:

So, Warren, what are you buying now? And what's your prediction for the dollar next year? His answers, respectively: No comment, and I'm not making one.




That doesn't sound like someone who is too sure about all these doomsday predictions.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Catalysis]
    #3888988 - 03/08/05 08:29 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
I guess I just have a hard time buying all these numbers, percentages, and 3-year charts as sure signs that America will somehow no longer exist in 10 years.



Did I say American will no longer exist in 10 years?

Quote:

When has our economy been this large?



Why does that matter?

Quote:

Are all of these numbers being looked at proportionally or are they just being thrown in our faces out of context?



What numbers? I brought up some concepts for you to examine.

Quote:

When has the population been this large?



Why does that matter?

I'll rephrase some questions...

When has there been more per capita consumer debt?

When has there been more per capita government debt?

When has there been a lower savings rate?

When has there been a greater percentage of government debt held by foreign countries?

How does the U.S. trade balance ratio compare to other periods in our history?

When has there been a greater per capita amount of unfunded liabilities for the federal government?

Why is Warren Buffet making so much money betting against the dollar? Why do you think he says he may hold foreign currencies "for years and years"?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3889132 - 03/08/05 08:48 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Did I say American will no longer exist in 10 years?




No, the post I was responding to did.

Quote:

Why does that matter?




Because a growing economy will naturally have a larger debt.

Quote:

What numbers? I brought up some concepts for you to examine.




Numbers like the "3-year graph" presented in that article. Had that been a 50 year graph, the deviation would probably not even be visible. This is just an example, you know what numbers I am talking about.

As for the other "concepts"..

You make a clever argument but you assume that all debt is not, and will never be payable or affordable to the debtors and, likewise, you infer that this debt is backed by nothing of value and its just fake money. This was exactly my point. When I borrow money, it is always backed by my assets and my potential to make more money, therefore I always pay my debt off. I wonder how many other people you can exclude from your figures or "concepts" as you like to put it. I also believe that the US debt is backed by a lot of value and potential in the private sector. This is something that is rarely, if ever, recognized because our economy is capitalist and that value is never associated with the assets of the government but it really is.

Just to make this clear..I definitely agree that there are money problems and economic problems but I stick to my statement that it is exaggerated. However, with the way our economy operates, I would never underestimate the impact of exaggeration and fear on the actual performance of the US economy.

Also, i don't care if some rich dude is investing 20 billion in euros because a .01% return is big money in that case.


Edited by Catalysis (03/08/05 08:54 PM)


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Catalysis]
    #3889235 - 03/08/05 09:19 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

"No, the post I was responding to did."

please quote where I say America will cease to exist. Please please pretty please.


--------------------


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3889311 - 03/08/05 09:30 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Ok you got me.  "I give america 10-25 years" is far too cryptic of a comment for me to decipher.  I was totally wrong in assuming you meant america would only last 10-25 more years. I have absolutely no idea what you meant but don't bother explaining because I just don't care anymore.  :stoned:


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Registered: 10/25/04
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Catalysis]
    #3889343 - 03/08/05 09:35 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Oh shit dude, sorry for not being more specific. But still, how did you turn nothing into something, not that I care anymore, but it was your error not mine.

"I give America another 10-25 years before our economy collapses into an irreversible downward spiral and we end up starving and leaking refugees until nothing but shattered dreams remain."

Better?


--------------------


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3889467 - 03/08/05 09:55 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah i get what you are saying now, i dint mean to sound like a jagoff lol. I have the same fear as well, being in the lower working class and the most susceptable to a depression, if something like that were to occur. I think my real point in all this is that debt, in and of itself, is not always just a bad thing. Our way of seeing it is kind of twisted because of the taboo put on debt, yet it is widely accepted as a resonable means to operate a budget on if you have the assets and potential. It is even seen as an investment.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3889506 - 03/08/05 10:36 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

Catalysis said:
LOL, america has been in much worse economic trouble than it is in today.



Please tell us when the U.S. has been more vulnerable to an economic downturn.  When has there been more consumer debt?  When has there been a lower savings rate?  When has there been more government debt?  When has there been a greater percentage of government debt held by foreign countries?  How does the U.S. trade deficit compare to other periods in our history?  When has there been a greater amount of unfunded liabilities?  What is it that you know about the U.S. dollar that Warren Buffet doesn't?




Post more often! I always enjoy your insights.  :laugh:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: cb9fl]
    #3889615 - 03/08/05 11:00 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Is there any way you could put that in simpler terms while still describing the situation?




Ill give it a shot.

Back in the 1800's a dollar was 1oz of silver. All the US money was in real precious metals.

Today that same silver dollar would cost you $7.50 in paper money.

What has happened is that the Federal reserve has taken us away from money that is backed by gold and silver and converted us to money that is backed by debt. This is why the interest rate is so important to the overall economy. This means that Greenspan (Chairman of the Federal Reserve) can, with the swish of a pen, destroy the US economy!

How do you back money with debt? This is where it gets complicated.

Ill try to simplify it and keep the numbers small.

Lets say that I am making money (Printing it) I loan you $100 with an interest rate of 10% per year. This means that each year you maintain the loan you will pay me an extra 10 dollars. Now I print 10 more dollars because I have 10 more (Backed by your debt to me) than I started with. I then lend these $10 to some one who will be paying an interest rate of 10% (1 dollar per year) and I print another dollar. As you can see I am only out $100 and have already made 111$.

Now what Greenspan tries to do is to control the interest rate to maintain a constant debt. If the debts are being payed off and the Federal Reserve system needs more debt to back money, they lower the interest rate to get people to borrow. If they have too much debt and can not back anymore with out the economy taking a nose dive they raise the interest rate to discourage people from borrowing.

This is VARY simplified!

What has happened is that a few people (In charge of the Federal Reserve Banks) technically own the colloidal that has been put down for the loan. The US Gold that is in Fort Knox, The Federal Lands, etc. Concentrating the wealth into the hands of a few people.

Hope this helps some.


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Banking institutions [Re: Cyber]
    #3889728 - 03/08/05 11:25 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

So is it correct in saying the Federal Reserve (a non government agency) has final control over the value of a dollar? Is Greenspan put in position by the public or by a private entity?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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