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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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question about evolution.....
    #8082518 -

i know this seems like it'd be an argument, but it's not, i just want to know.

apparently, it's been said that evolution is random, i don't know what they mean by that, but wouldn't it seem more likely that evolution is very specific? a tiger evolved to live like a tiger, a polar bear evolved to live like a polar bear, very specific to the animal or plants life, down to the detail? i mean, some things are random, a dog and cat both hunt animals(wildly that is, not domesticated), and are both different. But aside from that, every aspect of animal or plants life is at least at it's basic life level genetically evolved to a very specific degree, based on it's environment and surroundings or changes thereof.

what is everyones opinion of this? let's keep this nice and regulated, so the post doesn't get flamed. Cool


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: imachavel]
    #8082521 -

Who ever said evolution was random? I'm pretty sure the concept of evolution is based on the fact that things EVOLVED to fit their surroundings.

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Innominate]
    #8082556 -

i don't know, that's what i always thought, no idea.

recently i've heard it's random, but i don't know exactly what is meant by that, maybe it's not contradictory.

would you believe different? that it's not based on specific changes responding to the environment?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Innominate]
    #8082557 -

I did. Evolution is random genetic mutations and genetic drift being selected on by environmental factors, which are themselves essentially random.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Innominate]
    #8082563 -

Everything has come to be as a product of its own environment. But sometimes, evolution likes to experiment to find the best way to do things. Hence the theory of natural selection. More of a fact then a theory IMO.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=34886


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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082566 -

isn't that a contradicting statement? when you say that, do you mean....

that it's random, as in not completed by god? or that it's random, as in not specific to the surrounding environment, or something else?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082567 -

More to the point, things don't evolve adaptations to suit their surroundings.

Mutations arise randomly, and when a mutation is highly beneficial to the organism in its current environment, that trait is conserved. We call these happy coincidences adaptations. But they are fundamentally random in nature.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #8082571 -

ScYiNs47 said:
Everything has come to be as a product of its own environment. But sometimes, evolution likes to experiment to find the best way to do things. Hence the theory of natural selection. More of a fact then a theory IMO.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=34886


does this agree with what entropymancer said? or disagree with what entropymancer said?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: imachavel]
    #8082572 -

I think he is talking about mutations when he says random.

Mutations are in a way random. Genetic code changes in some random way, and that passes on the new traits. Now the pressures put on the organism with these new traits is not random. If the trait helps with procreation, it stays. Otherwise, it leaves the genetic pool.

Does that explain your question?

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082577 -

The entire history of life on this planet is a long series of random mutations changing the form and function of things.

The only way to make the argument that this is not random is to invoke God: God did it, so it's not random.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082584 -

God made the earth 6,000 years ago :yesnod:

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: DieCommie]
    #8082586 -

DieCommie said:
Now the pressures put on the organism with these new traits is not random.


Sure the pressures are dependent on the environmental situation, but isn't that in itself random? ie, what environment the organism is in, availability of reseources, etc.

It's all random.

Anyone who doesn't believe this needs to wikipedia "Evolution"


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082594 -

Entropymancer said:
More to the point, things don't evolve adaptations to suit their surroundings.

Mutations arise randomly, and when a mutation is highly beneficial to the organism in its current environment, that trait is conserved. We call these happy coincidences adaptations. But they are fundamentally random in nature.


happy coincidences adapaptations? being a scientist, doesn't that seem really like a .. i don't know, messed up statement? how many scientists even believe in coincidences, i thought that was against the rule of thinking scientifically.

ok, so a trait is saved because it's beneficial to the environment that the animal lives in, but it's random in it's basic changes until the plant or animal decides to save the trait. Even so, it would seem as though describing that as random is kind of misused. Anyway, whatever, the truth is, it happens as it happens, and no matter what we think, that's the way it is.

i mean with everything, it doesn't matter what we think, if god is real, he's real, if he's not, he's not. if science proves everything, than it does. I guess really it's like i said, it is how it is, no matter what we think based on whyever we think it, nothing is going to change that.


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: DieCommie]
    #8082599 -

DieCommie said:
I think he is talking about mutations when he says random.

Mutations are in a way random. Genetic code changes in some random way, and that passes on the new traits. Now the pressures put on the organism with these new traits is not random. If the trait helps with procreation, it stays. Otherwise, it leaves the genetic pool.

Does that explain your question?


yes


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: imachavel]
    #8082604 -

:macdre:

The entire history of life is happy coincidences (ie adaptations).

For example, when a single-celled organism incorporated another into itself as a power source.  That was how mitochondria came to be in multicellular organisms.

Why are coincidences unscientific in your mind?  Coincidences happen.  Science doesn't tend to contradict reality.


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082608 -

Its not random that Polar Bears become white. White color is an advantage for procreation in the north pole. Pressures from other organisms drive polar bears to become white because it is white in the north pole. Thats what I mean when I say the pressures are not random.

Now the tint of a new generation's fur will randomly be some color around the old generations. That mutation is fairly random.

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Entropymancer]
    #8082609 -

Entropymancer said:
DieCommie said:
Now the pressures put on the organism with these new traits is not random.


Sure the pressures are dependent on the environmental situation, but isn't that in itself random? ie, what environment the organism is in, availability of reseources, etc.

It's all random.

Anyone who doesn't believe this needs to wikipedia "Evolution"



well, i didn't see what you meant by that. I guess that's a way of looking at it, i wouldn't necessarily say that's random. But then again, i don't think the only way to say something isn't random is to argue that god made it that way.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Innominate]
    #8082611 -

Environment is an important part of the evolution
The rest is natural selection. The modern hyena, Manatee and Elephant have all evolved from a single ancestor as well as a lot of other species. The modern synthesis says the population is the basic unit of evolution which is interbreeding individuals in a specific area, what causes them to move around are a number of facts, prey depletion, storms, if they can fly a group can migrate. When a population arrives in a new area an individual with alleles (traits) that are disadvantageous aren't going to survive and those with helpful, or not harmful traits will begin to evolve away from where ever their founder population is.Small changes over a long period make for graduate changes that create an entire new species, variation in traits is somewhat random in that the dominant and recessive genes that are inherited are paired on different odds every time. You can't have four kids and get one with each set of traits. Each time its a one in whatever chance. Mutations deletion and replication of genes can occur, the systems not perfect and those traits may be helpful, but 99% of the time its harmful.

Hope that helped a little.


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"It is only once we've lost everything, we are free to do anything."


Everything I think, say, or do is fictional

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: Innominate]
    #8082613 -

genetic mutations are random. if these mutations prove to be advantageous to survival, they will continue genetically via mating.

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Re: question about evolution..... [Re: DieCommie]
    #8082618 -

DieCommie said:
Its not random that Polar Bears become white. White color is an advantage for procreation in the north pole. Pressures from other organisms drive polar bears to become white because it is white in the north pole. Thats what I mean when I say the pressures are not random.

Now the tint of a new generation's fur will randomly be some color around the old generations. That mutation is fairly random.


i agree with this, i think the whole concept of what we're argueing over has turned into your definition of random. I believe the color of a polar bears fur is white is a very specific change. Another way to look at it is random, i guess.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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