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Politics of climate change
    #7282051 -

Remember this guy?

Quote:
The top climate scientist at NASA says the Bush administration has tried to stop him from speaking out since he gave a lecture last month calling for prompt reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases linked to global warming.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/science/earth/29climate.html?ex=1296190800&en=28e236da0977ee7f&ei=5088




Same guy as this guy:

Quote:
Prominent scientist James Hansen criticizes President Bush’s climate change policy, despite the fact that the policy is in part based on Hansen’s own findings.

This is unheard of: A prominent scientist in the pay of the federal government attacks the President in a crucial state (Iowa) one week before the election. Not just any prominent scientist, either, but James Hansen, recipient of $250,000 in pocket change from the Heinz Foundation, run by Mrs. John Kerry. Don’t worry, though, he said he was speaking as a private citizen because he paid his own way. With Mrs. Kerry’s money, we might add, in his family nest egg.
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2004/10/28/blowing-your-own-whistle/




That second link also goes on to say this:

Quote:
And although we weren’t there, we can only assume he summarized the results of his research on global warming, which were very succinctly stated in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in 2001:

Quote:
Future global warming can be predicted much more accurately than is generally realized…we predict additional warming in the next 50 years of ¾ +/- 1/4ºC, a warming rate of 0.15ºC +/- 0.05ºC per decade.




That is precisely the same low figure that the so-called “skeptics”—the writers of these alerts and our apparently few friends—have been touting for years (readers will note that the White House never asked us!). Hansen’s figure sits at the bottom limit of projections made by the teeming horde of scientists and bureaucrats from the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.



But that isn't where I'm going today. Today's feature is about the actual data he used to come up with even that tiny warming projection. It was from NASA temperature measurements for the previous century plus. Well yesterday this popped up:

Quote:
Blogger Finds Y2K Bug in NASA Climate Data....

While inspecting historical temperature graphs, he noticed a strange discontinuity, or "jump" in many locations, all occurring around the time of January, 2000.

These graphs were created by NASA's Reto Ruedy and James Hansen (who shot to fame when he accused the administration of trying to censor his views on climate change). Hansen refused to provide McKintyre with the algorithm used to generate graph data, so McKintyre reverse-engineered it. The result appeared to be a Y2K bug in the handling of the raw data.

McKintyre notified the pair of the bug; Ruedy replied and acknowledged the problem as an "oversight" that would be fixed in the next data refresh.
http://www.dailytech.com/Blogger+Finds+Y2K+Bug+in+NASA+Climate+Data/article8383.htm






Nasa has since restated the data here:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.D.txt
Pay particular attention to the rolling 5 year mean.

For comparison purposes check this out:
http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/2007/08/1998_no_longer_the_hottest_yea.html

Top ten hottest years
Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85

I supply the data because people are lazy. At any rate, 5 of the top 10 hottest years were from 1921 to 1939, when there was a twenty year span of higher than normal temps. Like now. Also for the more interested check out the comments at this link, some are excellent.

Now here's the smelly part. This guy Hanson took $250,000 while a government employee from a Democrat Presidential candidate's wife's charity, went to Iowa during the 2004 election cycle and campaigned. Then two years later accused NASA and Bush of censoring him. Shortly thereafter, someone spots some aberrant data in NASA's figures, asks for the raw data and algorithms, is denied access by Hanson but works it backwards to get the info. This intrepid researcher then nicely informs NASA which restates the figures. Vewy kwietwy.

Now, I ask you, who does it look like is cooking the books? Bush? Or the bought and paid for shill, Hansen?

Al Gore's "consensus" is melting faster than the polar ice cap.


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7284861 -

:shocked:

What a SHOCK!

Oh wait, it's not.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #7284933 -

Though not quite a surprise, the overwhelming chutzpah of the man to actually accuse someone else of scientific malfeasance while at the same time concealing his data and methods to avoid a necessary correction is certainly impressive. Politicians are politicians but a scientist is supposed to share and stand for open methodology and replicability, especially if you are presenting yourself as an expert without bias and "just the facts ma'am". In this day and age of idiotically lying douchebags like Dan Rather, John Kerry and Scott Thomas this guy has earned a statue. Nixon gets a statue, those other guys just get plaques.


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7284934 -

We need to start building more coal fired power plants. Nuclear power plants take too long to build and put into service.

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: Luddite]
    #7284935 -

We need to build both


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7284940 -

True. It'll take a while to get more nukes going, though, from what I read.

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: Luddite]
    #7284948 -

Even more reason to get started on 'em right now.


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7285020 -

Your just looking for an excuse to discredit someone, just like every other corrupt person in the media and government. this data means bullshit to me, look at the chart on a slightly longer time frame, lets say 1750-current and youll see alot different picture. its beautiful how some people who know how to play with statistics can fool someone who is desperately seeking to be fooled.

Also dude look at some of those comments on that blog, like that well be have the technology to set the thermostat on the earth?? that just proves how quasi intellectuals can write whatever they want and get some people who wanna believe their point of view to take it hand in mouth and call it a "source".
I just finished a degree in environmental science, global climate change is happening, its not a debate, its occurring. to what degree?? well that depends on a few things, the dynamics of the atmosphere, which we dont fully comprehend right now and may never understand fully, and also the reaction of the public. its our responsibility to change how we act and save this earth, we need to cut emissions today, not tomorrow. WAKE UP PEOPLE, dont get sucked into that bureaucratic mess thats going to bring this world down.

seeing shit like this makes me sad to be a human...

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: lngislndshroomer]
    #7285050 -

Quote:
this data means bullshit to me...



and

Quote:
I just finished a degree in environmental science...



Please tell us at which university, so we can not send our children there. Any university purporting to teach science which hands out degrees to students who treat accurate data as "bullshit" is not doing its job properly.

Quote:
...global climate change is happening, its not a debate...



As a real university would have taught you, global climate change has been happening for billions of years. The question to be answered -- the question even you admit we can't answer at present and may never be able to answer is: how much (if any) of the very slight rise in temperature over the last hundred years or so can be attributed to humans burning stuff?



Phred


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: lngislndshroomer]
    #7285122 -

Oh Brave New World that has such people in it. I'm guessing we have a "hockey stick" fan here. That's been hammered to pieces, too. As to the comments you refer to it is certainly true that some are not particularly strong but they are all written in English. Anyway, if you could have I'm sure you would have followed my point that it wasn't so much about the data as it was about politicization of science by someone who accused the President of just that thing. The data were provided as background mostly. Thanks for weighing in, though, your education is about to begin.


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7286539 -

Quote:
the overwhelming chutzpah of the man to actually accuse someone else of scientific malfeasance while at the same time concealing his data and methods to avoid a necessary correction is certainly impressive.



This is what happens when politics becomes involved with science. The same problem happens with the war on drugs. Unfortunately, the end result is that you cannot trust any research being done in the fields that politicians have taken an active interest.

Quote:
ow much (if any) of the very slight rise in temperature over the last hundred years or so can be attributed to humans burning stuff?



All of it! She's a witch! She turned me into a newt! Burn her!


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: Seuss]
    #7287909 -

i'm sure it's just a coincidence that the recent warming spell HAPPENS to coincide with the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, and it's just the liberal media's fault that 9 of the warmest years on record happened in the last 10. All of the climate change models indicate this period of warming happened to coincide with the industrial revolution. Is this a coincidence? Coal doesn't dig itself out of the ground and light itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming







"The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4 have increased by 31% and 149% respectively above pre-industrial levels since 1750. These levels are considerably higher than at any time during the last 650,000 years, the period for which reliable data has been extracted from ice cores. From less direct geological evidence it is believed that CO2 values this high were last attained 20 million years ago.[18] Fossil fuel burning has produced about three-quarters of the increase in CO2 from human activity over the past 20 years. Most of the rest is due to land-use change, in particular deforestation.[19]"




Lets just ignore it, everything's fine.

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #7287932 -

Quote:
...just the liberal media's fault that 9 of the warmest years on record happened in the last 10.



Incorrect. See the original post.





Phred


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: ArcofaJourney]
    #7288139 -

ArcofaJourney said:
i'm sure it's just a coincidence that the recent warming spell HAPPENS to coincide with the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, and it's just the liberal media's fault that 9 of the warmest years on record happened in the last 10. All of the climate change models indicate this period of warming happened to coincide with the industrial revolution. Is this a coincidence? Coal doesn't dig itself out of the ground and light itself.



I'm going to assume you can read because you wrote this post (unless you dictated it) but did you even read the initial entry and follow the links at all? NASA had to restate the figures because that twatwaffle Hansen fucked them up and got caught. It turns out that 5 of the 10 hottest years were before WW2. Go re-read.

Really, I spent a lot of time researching and writing that post, replete with numerous links. The least you can do if you're going to comment is read it. I specifically debunked the 9 of 10 nonsense. Wiki is slow to adjust. That's their fault, not mine.
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming







"The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4 have increased by 31% and 149% respectively above pre-industrial levels since 1750. These levels are considerably higher than at any time during the last 650,000 years, the period for which reliable data has been extracted from ice cores. From less direct geological evidence it is believed that CO2 values this high were last attained 20 million years ago.[18] Fossil fuel burning has produced about three-quarters of the increase in CO2 from human activity over the past 20 years. Most of the rest is due to land-use change, in particular deforestation.[19]"



Now that's interesting and given the other wiki error suspect but to put a different perspective on it they cite a 31% CO2 increase since 1750 (not 1950 by the way 1750). Here's some more perspective:
The concentration of CO2 is 377 ppm.
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/sio-mlo.htm
That's parts per million. .0377% or .000377 of atmospheric particles. The amount is so miniscule it's ridiculous. Further, the greatest effector on the greenhouse effect is water vapor. Methane is also in there. Cow farts. Here's another concept; they can't determine with any certainty which way the causality arrow points in regard to the warming and CO2 coincidence, if there even is one. Another unanswered question is if there actually is any unnatural warming at all and how much is it. The best I can recall finding is that there has been a less than 1 degree rise in 50 years. Entirely natural, i.e. solar driven? Maybe.


For you Newsweek readers out there you should probably see this piece:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20226462/site/newsweek/page/0/

Quote:
If you missed NEWSWEEK's story, here's the gist. A "well-coordinated, well-funded campaign by contrarian scientists, free-market think tanks and industry has created a paralyzing fog of doubt around climate change." This "denial machine" has obstructed action against global warming and is still "running at full throttle." The story's thrust: discredit the "denial machine," and the country can start the serious business of fighting global warming. The story was a wonderful read, marred only by its being fundamentally misleading.



This reinforces the main thrust of my thread, which is that there are honest and dishonest actors on both sides of this issue. I do not accept as fact his premise that there even is any warming that we need to be concerned about, that we are causing it, or that we can do anything at all to thwart it. There are plenty of good and valid reasons to conserve energy. I abhor waste in general and gluttons disgust me. Even more I hate the phonies;
http://radaronline.com/features/2007/08/barbara_streisand_al_gore_hypocrisy_leonardo_dicaprio_1.php

Quote:
It's always galling to be exhorted to curb your consumption by people who are living the poshest lifestyle imaginable. But the problem here goes beyond aesthetics. Eco-hypocrites undercut the very message they're trying to peddle. How desperate could the planet's plight be if the people who present themselves as most concerned about it consider flying first-class commercial an unacceptable sacrifice? Why should anyone bother to carpool when Streisand requires her own convoy? Or forgo A/C for a fan when Edwards is chilling in the largest house in his county? The implication of the hypocrites' behavior is that we must take all measures to fight global warming short of those that would reduce our quality of life. But a reduction in quality of life—or at least a redefinition of it—is exactly what Americans are going to have to accept to make a meaningful dent in greenhouse gas levels.




I have now expanded this thread to include not only dishonest scientists but hypocrites and a primer on the nay side of global warming as well. Too bad. I didn't want it to lose the focus.





Lets just ignore it, everything's fine.




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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7288853 -

ok so let me clarify myself:

I graduated from SUNY Environmental Science and Forestry in syracuse, NY. It's quite acreddited in its field, you should check it out, right on the campus of syracuse university.

My statement about his data being bullshit was in reference to the fact that i believe he is trying to distort the actual statistics of the matter by leaving out the beginning of the rise(1750-1900)

And what university did you go that explained to you that a rise of lets say 1 degree would be a blanket affect, like a plus one sign on our weather maps of today. The warming is expected to be non uniform, hitting the poles and higher latitudes the hardest. now that may sound nice to everyone else but there is a significant amount of methane and CO2 stored in permafrost, which if released wouldnt help us at all. and next comes the frozen anhydrous methane underneath the oceans which with methane being one of the strongest greenhouse gas per molecule(second to only man made CFCs). this is a compounding problem that will only get worse if we dont do anything. i dont understand what the problem with looking after our world, extreme danger or not, really is.

I also dont think your making any point by saying that dems are jsut as corrupt as reps, NO SHIT man. there is no difference between the two opposing parties of the ruling class of america. Sooo, yes valid point our government is corrupt, and it snakes its hand into the sciences, but on the same breath, i disagree with your attitude towards global warming. and i guess thats where its gunna stand for now, all i know is im buying land in canada for my grandkids so they can live on some fertile land in the new climate.

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7289225 -

zappaisgod said:
We need to build both



Whether or not the burning of fossil fuels is leading to global warming is only one of many issues that concern how and where we should get our power.

Attempting to discredit the global warming model of climate change is a tactic of distraction. The real reasons we should move away from Coal and gasoline is because they are non-renewable. Eventually we will have to. In addition they pollute the air that we breathe, lead to acid rain, sink in our water sources and kill fish and other wildlife that are important to our existence. And yes, they are greenhouse gases, which may or may not be heating the surface to a dangerous degree. Nuclear power leads to hazardous pollution that lasts for a very long time.

Coal and nuclear power will continue to be necessary for the rest of my lifetime, but we should be making moves towards renewable energy sources. Wind, solar and hydro-electric power will continue to get cheaper until eventually they are the most efficient. If the neo-cons want to continue to argue for coal and nuclear power when renewable sources are cheaper, they are certainly more than welcome to commit political suicide if it pleases them.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: lngislndshroomer]
    #7290212 -

Quote:
My statement about his data being bullshit was in reference to the fact that i believe he is trying to distort the actual statistics of the matter by leaving out the beginning of the rise(1750-1900)



Two points here:

1) The data isn't "his" data, it is government data. It doesn't go back to 1750 because it is not inferred approximations of temperature, but actual HARD instrumental data from terrestrial temperature measurement sites. There were no such sites in 1750.

If you had read the links provided you would know this already.

2) Someone with a university degree in environmental science should be able to tell us -- without even having to look it up -- the approximate period (plus or minus say 50 years on either end) covered by the Little Ice Age. Therefore someone with such a degree would know that one of the minima of the Little Ice Age is generally agreed to be -- surprise, surprise -- 1750. Talk about trying to distort the actual statistics of the matter!



Phred


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Re: Politics of climate change [Re: Phred]
    #7291385 -

Quote:
Therefore someone with such a degree would know that one of the minima of the Little Ice Age is generally agreed to be -- surprise, surprise -- 1750. Talk about trying to distort the actual statistics of the matter!



Oh my fucking god what a great glorious bitch slap. Do you think he's touring with Hansen? What a show that would be.

Do you know what's really sad? The Syracuse School of Forestry is nationally renowned. And now they are graduating shills.


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