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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
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Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
religion in politics
    #3666660 - 01/23/05 05:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sort of a paranoid person, so i could just be imagining this, but it seems to me that more and more everyday this country is becoming the fucking land of the bible.

This scares the hell out of me, because it could have some enormous consequences if you think about it.

There were what 13 states that voted for a ban on Gay marrige. Not one place thought Gay people should have rights, now to most people they dont care either way, but if they can do that who's to say they couldn't start forcing other regilous "values"(God i hate that fuckign word) on us.

They could outlaw birthcontrol, there have already been a few places where phramacies have refused to sell it.

There have been several attempts to teach fucking creationism in grade schools. So far they have been shut down, but if one of them wins in court with some christian asshole judge then it sets a preccedent and it dominoes.

Abortion is alot closer to being illegal again than most people want to admit.

Illicit drug users will face stiffer penalties.

There are bigger things that could happen too. If america really did become a religous state, then it would be a very scary world. No one would stand a chance against us. I suppose if all the other sane countries joined together they might have a chance, but fuckign europe has never had sense enough to do something before its too late look at WWII. They tried to appease hitler and they all but let him walk into france without a fight, thinking he would stop there. If America wanted to it could crush the majority of the world execpt maybe China(they just have way to many fucking people), adn then there would be a World Government imposing Christian views on populace.

There are books in which a scenario similar to this happens written by a man named Ben Bova. They primarily are about space exploration in the near future, but there is a world government run by crazy zealots that usually serve as the antagonist. It frankly scares the hell out of me and the reason it does is because everything he writes about is goddamn logical. You can literally see exactly how these people came to power. The scary part is that a couple of the books are set like 5 or 6 years from now and the New Morality(thats the crazies) are already starting to influence politics. They bear an unmistakeable resemblance to Christian Colition which is a group that fully supports President Bush.

Like i said im a paranoid guy, and i doubt all that stuff will happen, but the point is that it could and easily. Its all ready starting, Bush will make it a very very hard place for democrats to do anything by the time hes out of office. He has the house and the Senate, and The supreme court will be heavily weighted to the conservative side as he replaces the old geezers that will be leaving.

He keeps talkign about his second term agenda, and his social security reforms, when what he's really doing is setting it up so that it will be a republican government for a long time. Not all republicans are not all christian of course, but the majority are. Crazy ones too that think that their "Values" are more important than anyone else's.

I'm really baked and probly typed way too much, but I needed to write this stuff down for some reason. Anyways tell me if you can see my points or if you just think im crazy or whatever. Peace

Blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePaou
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 376
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3667051 - 01/23/05 10:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In some ways it's getting worse, but in other ways it's getting better. The fact that gay marriage is even an issue now is a sign of progress. And recall that there was a time before when abortion was illegal. I think the scary thing here isn't America becoming more religious, but rather the increasing power of the federal government and decreasing power of the states. This is causing the Bible Belt to have more power over the whole country. If they kept this shit in their own states, I wouldn't have much of a problem. BTW, Bush is not going to make abortion illegal. If Roe vs. Wade is overturned, what that will do is turn abortion over to the states. So then, some states will make it illegal, but others like California and New York will still have laws protecting it. Anyway, you're right to be concerned, but I don't think we'll be turning into Iran any time soon.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3667275 - 01/23/05 12:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)


but it seems to me that more and more everyday this country is becoming the fucking land of the bible.

Fewer people go to church in America nowadays than ever before.


There were what 13 states that voted for a ban on Gay marrige. Not one place thought Gay people should have rights

The majority of the American population disagreeing with homosexuality is nothing new. It has always been with us. Acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle is higher than it has ever been, but it is still not high enough to get these pro-gay initiatives passed.


They could outlaw birthcontrol, there have already been a few places where phramacies have refused to sell it.

Please show me proof that conservative or Christian legislators want to make birth control illegal. Whatever a privately owned pharmacy decides to sell is their personal decision and has nothing to do with law.


There have been several attempts to teach fucking creationism in grade schools. So far they have been shut down, but if one of them wins in court with some christian asshole judge then it sets a preccedent and it dominoes.

I don't know what the scope of this proposed teaching would be. Does the textbook say for a fact that there is a creator? Does it say that it is possible? Does it merely mention Creationism theory and Evolution theory and let the student decide for themselves? The fact is is that we as humans do not have definitive scientific proof to show how life came into being. Neither the creationists nor the evolutionists seem to want to admit that.


Abortion is alot closer to being illegal again than most people want to admit.

Bullshit. Show me proof that abortion is anywhere close to being made illegal.


Illicit drug users will face stiffer penalties.

Huh? I have heard of no new strict legislation that increased drug offense penalties. Show some proof on this. By the way, practically all politicans play up being tough on drugs, not just conservatives or christians.


There are bigger things that could happen too. If america really did become a religous state, then it would be a very scary world.

Given that there is absolutely no proof or even an inkling that the things you have asserted are happening or will happen, I doubt this prediction.



adn then there would be a World Government imposing Christian views on populace.

The only religious people in this world that seem to be making an effort to enforce their beliefs upon the entire world seems to be Islamic extremists.



He keeps talkign about his second term agenda, and his social security reforms, when what he's really doing is setting it up so that it will be a republican government for a long time. Not all republicans are not all christian of course, but the majority are.

What the hell does the suggested social security reform have to do with the elections of representatives and senators to the House of Reprentatives and the Senate? A law that is proposed into Congress has no affect on who is elected two or four years down the road.


I think you are a tad bit too scared about the conservative christians in America. I actually tend to think that they are pretty much impotent. They have large amounts of numbers, but when it comes to getting their desires instituted into policy, it never happens. For example, abortion has been legal for a long time.

I think most "conservative christian" politicians just kiss ass to the bible thumpers and then promptly forget about them(until the next election of course).


Edited by RandalFlagg (01/23/05 12:36 PM)


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: religion in politics [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3667375 - 01/23/05 01:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:


I don't know what the scope of this proposed teaching would be. Does the textbook say for a fact that there is a creator? Does it say that it is possible? Does it merely mention Creationism theory and Evolution theory and let the student decide for themselves? The fact is is that we as humans do not have definitive scientific proof to show how life came into being. Neither the creationists nor the evolutionists seem to want to admit that.






Creationism isn't a scientific theory, in fact its not science at all. It has no buisness in the classroom. If we want our kids to develop uncritical minds of mush, then we can fill their schedule full of creationism, art, and music.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3667401 - 01/23/05 01:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
I'm sort of a paranoid person, so i could just be imagining this, but it seems to me that more and more everyday this country is becoming the fucking land of the bible.




Lets hope that you have a post filled with "maybes", "could bes" and unsubstantiated theory! You'll be fitting right in line!
Quote:


There were what 13 states that voted for a ban on Gay marrige. Not one place thought Gay people should have rights, now to most people they dont care either way, but if they can do that who's to say they couldn't start forcing other regilous "values"(God i hate that fuckign word) on us.



I think that most people believe that gays should have rights, just not the right to marry, apparently.
Quote:


They could outlaw birthcontrol, there have already been a few places where phramacies have refused to sell it.




They could burn your house down and have a US version of Krystallnacht. But they haven't. Anything COULD happen. Saying that something COULD happen and then using that as a basis for your paranoia is just super-paranoid. And heaven forbid that 13-18 year olds can't fuck constantly! My god, it would be just like the old days where we didn't need welfare for thelittle poor ghetto mammas.
Quote:


There have been several attempts to teach fucking creationism in grade schools. So far they have been shut down, but if one of them wins in court with some christian asshole judge then it sets a preccedent and it dominoes.




"if"
Quote:


Abortion is alot closer to being illegal again than most people want to admit.




Are you going to continue with baseless one-liners or offer any proof? If someone wants to make it illegal to kill living organism, I'm not going to object too much. Heaven forbid we go back to an America where people are held responsible for their actions.
Quote:


Illicit drug users will face stiffer penalties.




Thats not really got anything whatsoever to do with the Bible. Any true Xtian would see that the Bible states that god put herbs and plants here for our use.
Quote:


There are bigger things that could happen too. If america really did become a religous state, then it would be a very scary world.




"if"? I think that happened about 250 years ago, right? Notice the word "God" in all of our founding documents? Neat-o!
Quote:


No one would stand a chance against us.




If people who really believe in the Bible and it's true concepts, unconditional love, forgiveness, charity, ran the country, then who would need to have a chance against us?
Quote:


I suppose if all the other sane countries joined together they might have a chance, but fuckign europe has never had sense enough to do something before its too late look at WWII.




We would destroy them quite easily.
Quote:


They tried to appease hitler and they all but let him walk into france without a fight, thinking he would stop there. If America wanted to it could crush the majority of the world execpt maybe China(they just have way to many fucking people), adn then there would be a World Government imposing Christian views on populace.




Then we could have such evil Christian schemes as ending genocide in Arab nations and in Africa, rather than sitting around with thumbs buried up their asses and exploiting a sanction program so that they can make money illegaly! Oh JOy!
Quote:


There are books in which a scenario similar to this happens written by a man named Ben Bova. They primarily are about space exploration in the near future, but there is a world government run by crazy zealots that usually serve as the antagonist. It frankly scares the hell out of me and the reason it does is because everything he writes about is goddamn logical. You can literally see exactly how these people came to power. The scary part is that a couple of the books are set like 5 or 6 years from now and the New Morality(thats the crazies) are already starting to influence politics. They bear an unmistakeable resemblance to Christian Colition which is a group that fully supports President Bush.




blah blah... fictional books? Read "Unintended Consequenses" to see whats going to happen in the USA.
Quote:


Like i said im a paranoid guy, and i doubt all that stuff will happen, but the point is that it could and easily. Its all ready starting, Bush will make it a very very hard place for democrats to do anything by the time hes out of office. He has the house and the Senate, and The supreme court will be heavily weighted to the conservative side as he replaces the old geezers that will be leaving.




"he" doesn't have anything. The voters of the US got what they choose.
Quote:


He keeps talkign about his second term agenda, and his social security reforms, when what he's really doing is setting it up so that it will be a republican government for a long time. Not all republicans are not all christian of course, but the majority are. Crazy ones too that think that their "Values" are more important than anyone else's.




A republican doing something that would ensure future republican victories? Surely this is a sign of Armegeddon. After this post I'll be retiring to my storm shelter to await the second coming.
Quote:


I'm really baked and probly typed way too much, but I needed to write this stuff down for some reason. Anyways tell me if you can see my points or if you just think im crazy or whatever. Peace




Both, you have some vaild points and you seem to be somewhate crazy.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3667490 - 01/23/05 01:36 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

There has actually been more of a movement against religion and that is why you are noticing it. It was has been pushed as an excuse why Kerry lost the election and that is why christianity is being attacked in the news lately as some kind of "evangelical movement". Overall, nothing has really changed from how it has always been.

As for gay marrage, it is about benefits, not moral values. For example, a married couple can write off 500k profit in real estate every 2 years while I can only write off 250k. These laws were made because, traditionally, a women makes less than a man or nothing at all and it was designed to help them raise a family or whatever. Why should 2 men living together recieve all these benefits while I, a stuggling single person pays for it? Do you really think this is about obtaining a piece of paper from the government to show that you love someone?

I think that in a country where there is freedom to practice religion, you will of course see more of the popular religion around in daily life.

Quote:

He keeps talkign about his second term agenda, and his social security reforms, when what he's really doing is setting it up so that it will be a republican government for a long time. Not all republicans are not all christian of course, but the majority are. Crazy ones too that think that their "Values" are more important than anyone else's.





Social security reform is a great idea and absolutley necessary. It is not welfare, that is seperate. Social security was designed to be paid into by workers and given back during retirement, so why shouldn't us workers have control over it and a guaruntee that we will get it back? Also, do not act like democrats, libertarians, or whoever don't try to tell me what I should and shouldn't think. They all think that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Closed mindedness is universal.


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OfflineXygyg
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Registered: 01/21/05
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3667520 - 01/23/05 01:45 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If you'd like to read some really scary info on this topic, then go to www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html?pg=1

Its a fairly long article, but definitely worth the read.


--------------------

"There are no facts, only interpretations."
from Nietzsche's Nachlass


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
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Registered: 12/20/02
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Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: religion in politics [Re: Xygyg]
    #3669841 - 01/23/05 11:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry about all my crappy points like i said guys i was really baked last night and i was watching the news started talking about some religious bullshit or somethign and all these crazy ideas started coming into my head.

The people up there that picked my points apart are right most of the time, but ill point out some places where they were wrong.

Randall Flagg I cannot show you proof that conservative legislators are trying to make birth control illegal because it has not got to that point yet. BUT they ARE making some sneaky new laws that will pave the road so to speak. In Texas, where i live, there was an article just today in teh San Antonio Express News about the Anti-abortion groups expanding their fight into birth control areas.

There are several bills and I dont have the artical right here with me but they would, as you put it, give phramacies the right to deny to sell the morning after, adn birth control pills. This might not seem like a big deal i mean why not just go to a different place? Problems arise when you go to rural areas of texas and no one will be selling it. The morning after pill is a time sensitive thing. And kids who dont want their parents to know about it? forget it if they have to drive for hours to find the pill.

Another thing is the people bush has appointed to places in the FDA and congressional commitees and such. Again i dont have the article but he has time and time again appointed anti-abortion doctors and experts to these places. And he will do the same thing if any of the liberal supreme justices step down. Then the balance tips and yes its simply a matter of time before Roe v Wade is overturned.

You are right though if they do overturn it goes back to states. The problem is that all but what like 10 states are red now, and you can count on not having abortions in those states.

As for the Creationism teaching it has been varied. The bible idiots try to hide it with another name however, i think they call it Intelligent Design. Sounds scientific huh? Anyways In one Alabama school they put stickers on the science books that said that Evolution wasnt a fact, adn that it should be carefully weighed against this Intelligent Design. They were ordered to remove the stickers by a court.

In Maryland, or Massatuchets, or one of those northern states, i believe that they removed Evolution from the books entirely and were quickly slapped with a lawsuit. There have been other incidents and like i said none of them have really worked, but it only takes one God loving Judge to change things.

EVOLUTION IS A FACT RANDALLFLAGG. What isnt known is the mechanism behind it. We know it happened, and is still happening, but we dont know why in other words. It could be that a God is shaping it but that is highly unlikely. On the whole, adn yes there are execptions, each new peice of science that is learned on the subject supports Natural Selection. You can literally line up fossils and see evolution in stages it is undeniable. so your definately wrong on that one.

On a completely unrelated note, Nice name. The Dark Tower books are my favorite story of all time.

I agree Suupax there does need to be Social Security Reform. I didnt make myself very clear last night. When i said bush is setting it so that more republicans will have power in the future, i wasnt trying to point out somethign that everyone would be surprised by. As someone else put it up there Big Surprise right. What i meant is that if they do and their party continues to become more and more influenced by groups like the Christian Coalition, then more and more of the sort of things ive been talking about will continue to happen.

Also you siad the voters of the US got what they chose. That is correct in that i do not doubt that Bush actually won this election, but you have to remember that despite him winning cleanly he still barely got half the country. The other half did not ask for him, and does not want his ideals, but they have no choice. I understand this is how our country works and it pisses off the republicans when a liberal law passes, but that still doesnt chnge that fact that nearly half the country has a different point of view that Bush simply refuses to listen too.

Sorry for putting the part about the fictional books in there like i said i was baked and it sounded like a good thing to say, but as someone pointed out they are just books. Still if you read them they are scary, and it is true that after reading them you can see how it could happen in the real world.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3670037 - 01/24/05 12:27 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)


Randall Flagg I cannot show you proof that conservative legislators are trying to make birth control illegal because it has not got to that point yet. BUT they ARE making some sneaky new laws that will pave the road so to speak. In Texas, where i live, there was an article just today in teh San Antonio Express News about the Anti-abortion groups expanding their fight into birth control areas.

Well, please show proof of it. What does "expanding the fight into birth control areas" mean? That doesn't necessarily mean that they are trying to make it illegal. How are they "paving the road" for illegalizing birth control? I could not fathom how any conservative christians could muster anything that could get anywhere close to getting birth control banned.


There are several bills and I dont have the artical right here with me but they would, as you put it, give phramacies the right to deny to sell the morning after, adn birth control pills.

Morning after pills cannot be bought over the counter. They need a doctor to prescribe them. Usually people get them from their local family planning clinic. Private pharmacies that are owned by private individuals can sell or not sell whatever the hell they want.


Another thing is the people bush has appointed to places in the FDA and congressional commitees and such. Again i dont have the article but he has time and time again appointed anti-abortion doctors and experts to these places. And he will do the same thing if any of the liberal supreme justices step down. Then the balance tips and yes its simply a matter of time before Roe v Wade is overturned.

You seem to be tying abortion and access to birth control together. They are two completely different issues. Abortion is legal and even if all of the liberal Supreme court justices were to die and Bush were to put hardcore conservative Christians on the bench, I don't see even then that the Supreme Court would try to make abortion illegal. There is too much public support for it. As far as birth control illegalization goes, I honestly have not seen any evidence to indicate that anybody is trying to do that. I also think there would be such massive opposition to it that it would never get anywhere. I don't know where you got your information that these things were "going to happen" or that the "road was being paved" to making it happen. I think you are worrying over nothing.


You are right though if they do overturn it goes back to states. The problem is that all but what like 10 states are red now, and you can count on not having abortions in those states.

Not all Republicans and Christians are against abortion. And so what if abortion was left for the states to decide? At least then the Constitution would be being followed(the federal government hasn't done that in a while).


EVOLUTION IS A FACT RANDALLFLAGG.


Randalflagg said:
The fact is is that we as humans do not have definitive scientific proof to show how life came into being.


I never said evolution wasn't fact. I said that how life came into being is in question. The Creationists haven't shown proof that God made stuff and the Evolutionists haven't shown proof that life came from non-life and that humans came from that.

It has been shown that species die out because of environmental changes. It has been shown that certain branches of species live while other banches die. It has been shown that these subtle changes eventually add up to big changes. But, not everything is clear yet. That is why I think it is irresponsible for either side to claim the truth. Nobody knows the truth of how human beings and life in general "got here".



their party continues to become more and more influenced by groups like the Christian Coalition

You keep saying that, but I don't believe you have shown any significant proof that supports that assertion.


Edited by RandalFlagg (01/24/05 12:29 AM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3670237 - 01/24/05 01:18 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
Sorry about all my crappy points like i said guys i was really baked last night and i was watching the news started talking about some religious bullshit or somethign and all these crazy ideas started coming into my head. 




That happens to me alot :smile:  They weren't crappy points and some of them might be vaild.
Quote:


  BUT they ARE making some sneaky new laws that will pave the road so to speak.  In Texas, where i live, there was an article just today in teh San Antonio Express News about the Anti-abortion groups expanding their fight into birth control areas. 




What new laws are they working on?
Quote:


There are several bills and I dont have the artical right here with me but they would, as you put it, give phramacies the right to deny to sell the morning after, adn birth control pills. 




They should have that right. You are looking at a situation with two possible results. One, the pharmacy is given the right to sell whichever product they want or to not sell certain products. Two, the government FORCES pharmacies to carry these products against the will of the proprietor who put his money up to start the company.  It's not as if these are life-saving chemicals that they are refusing to dole out to sick people.  A morning after pill kills an organism. If you want to see it as a human life, OK. If you don't, that OK to. But you have to understand that some people do see it as a human life and you have to realize that you can't force them to do it.
Quote:


This might not seem like a big deal i mean why not just go to a different place?  Problems arise when you go to rural areas of texas and no one will be selling it.  The morning after pill is a time sensitive thing.  And kids who dont want their parents to know about it?  forget it if they have to drive for hours to find the pill.




You have a problem with the excess of religion in America, yet underage girls are buying pills, without their parents permission, that kills organisms growing in them?
Quote:


Another thing is the people bush has appointed to places in the FDA and congressional commitees and such.  Again i dont have the article but he has time and time again appointed anti-abortion doctors and experts to these places.  And he will do the same thing if any of the liberal supreme justices step down.  Then the balance tips and yes its simply a matter of time before Roe v Wade is overturned. 




I can't say that I'd be terribly upset by that.  Do you think that a country that supports the death of innocent children is morally right or morally wrong?
Quote:


You are right though if they do overturn it goes back to states.  The problem is that all but what like 10 states are red now, and you can count on not having abortions in those states.




So the will of the people in these states will be done? Again, I'm failing to see a problem here. If that is what the people want, the only other solution is for our government to force them to accept what they don't want.
Quote:


As for the Creationism teaching it has been varied.  The bible idiots try to hide it with another name however, i think they call it Intelligent Design.  Sounds scientific huh?  Anyways In one Alabama school they put stickers on the science books that said that Evolution wasnt a fact, adn that it should be carefully weighed against this Intelligent Design.  They were ordered to remove the stickers by a court. 




Are the members of that court part of the religous conspiracy?
Quote:


EVOLUTION IS A FACT RANDALLFLAGG.[/quot]e
Evolution is a theory that hasn't been proven wrong and that all studies show to be true, thus far.  IT's still the theory of evolution. But, technically, gravity is still a theory :smile:  I believe in evolution, but I'm open to other things as long as they aren't supernatural
Quote:


I agree Suupax there does need to be Social Security Reform.  I didnt make myself very clear last night.  When i said bush is setting it so that more republicans will have power in the future, i wasnt trying to point out somethign that everyone would be surprised by.  As someone else put it up there Big Surprise right.  What i meant is that if they do and their party continues to become more and more influenced by groups like the Christian Coalition, then more and more of the sort of things ive been talking about will continue to happen. 




If the majority of Americans vote for it, is that bad?
Quote:


Also you siad the voters of the US got what they chose.  That is correct in that i do not doubt that Bush actually won this election, but you have to remember that despite him winning cleanly he still barely got half the country.




Eh, he got a pretty big chunk really.
Quote:


  The other half did not ask for him, and does not want his ideals, but they have no choice.  I understand this is how our country works and it pisses off the republicans when a liberal law passes, but that still doesnt chnge that fact that nearly half the country has a different point of view that Bush simply refuses to listen too. 




That is why we need stronger state and local governments and less federal government power.


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Registered: 10/21/04
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3671272 - 01/24/05 06:09 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When it comes to those who incorporate their religious beliefs into their political beliefs, conservatives most of the time have this prerogative.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: religion in politics [Re: SoopaX]
    #3671328 - 01/24/05 06:49 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

okay lots to say.

Randyflagg

first off morning after pills would be legal today if the panel of FDA people had approved it like the petition that scientists gave them during the deliberations said they should. Of course they never had a chance since the panel was appointed by Bush and were all pro-life...

Secondly he got a lot of heat for that and it may turn out that hte pill will go over the counter soon. Its been on teh news in teh last week or so. theres no way to know how it will play out yet of course.

Pharmascists have been refusing to fill prescriptions for these drugs both the mornign after, and birth control pills, and at least here in texas, there is a bill on teh table which would protect their right to do this. Like i said in rural areas if someone decided they wanted it they might have to drive a very long way to get it filled. Texas is a very big place.

Here is the article i was talking about earlier from the San Antonio Express News http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/nation/stories/MYSA012305.1P.abortion.297e410e.html
Its a little long but it covers alot of things. It discusses the "sneaky" laws i was talking about as well. At the very least i think it makes me sound a little less crazy.

soopax

The problem is that even in texas one of the reddest states there were still like 39 or 40% of the votes for Kerry. Thats ALOT of people that dont agree with how things are run. It doesnt matter so much when you talk about taxes and law and order and the sorts of things that the government should be regulating. It does matter when u get into the social issues such as abortion and what we have been talking about here.

The government has no place in these sort of things. If it comes down to a "Value" it just shouldnt be put into law. because people dont have all the same values. To force someone to live with yours is wrong and uncostitutional. On the other hand if you think that abortion is wrong just dont fucking have one. Why do these people think they need to make other people think like them? Ill tell you why. Its because they are all crazy fucking Conservative Christians who think they are doing gods work. And religion isnt supposed to interfere with politics at all.

oh yea and 52 or 53% isnt that big of a big hunk, when the other guy gets 48%. thats what 5% difference if what you say is true then because 5% more of the country voted for bush, he has the right to make the 48% who didnt subject to his beliefs. Thats not what politics is about it should be blind to beliefs and faiths, this is what the constitution says. Just cause america is on a bible banging trend right now doesnt give them the right to put their beliefs into law.

You may think they have a point and that abortion is wrong but not everyone thinks that way why should they be forced to live by your opinion? which is all this is really about. How can you make an Opinion into law? thats what they are doing. its the OPINION of pro-life groups that a fetus is alive, maybe so maybe not, me personally dont think it is until well into the pregnency. Obviously it doesnt just become alive when a woman gives birth its a gradual thing but the pro life people think that hte collection of cells that form the zygote is life. Technically it is but is it thinking? NO. is it conscience of itself? NO. i think at that point its the womans right to decide if she wants to go through the pain of child bearing or not.

The Christian Coalition believe that people should not have rights to these sort of things. Oh yea Flagg i have no cited references, but i know this is true. The Christian Coalition was one of Bush's biggest supporters during the election. They made donations to his campain. They have more power than i think you know. There are lots of rich people in teh group and they use their power to influence the lawmaking process just like any other activist group. The only difference beiing is that they are trying to legislate Christian beliefs which is not constitutional. Also they throw around alot of propaganda to churches and the like and get people brainwashed to their beliefs.

One of the things the like ot say is that America was founded as a Christian country which is a complete and total lie. The founding fathers for the most part were not a religous group.

and soopax no the the alabama court arent part of the conspiracy they ordered the crazy school board that had made up the stickers to get rid of them. And they were right.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: religion in politics [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3671390 - 01/24/05 07:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Does it merely mention Creationism theory and Evolution theory and let the student decide for themselves? The fact is is that we as humans do not have definitive scientific proof to show how life came into being. Neither the creationists nor the evolutionists seem to want to admit that.

We have TONS of scientific evidence that evolution is the system from which life originated. We have carbon dated fossils all falling into sequence consistant with evolution, we've observed evolution happen in the real world on both small and larger scales. In science, pretty much everything is considered a theory, even when there is pretty solid proof.

Creationism, on the other hand, doesn't have any real scientific evidence. The best they can come up with are nonsensical, unscientific garbage, spewed out by unqualified people calling themselves scientists.

If they're going to teach that creationism is theory the same way evolution is, they might as well teach that about astrology, alien abductions, ESP, bigfoot, Time Cube, Alex Chiu's eternal life device , etc...

The problem is that people seriously need more science education. If you can't understand the difference between the evidence supporting creationism and evolution, you certainly aren't qualified to be deciding what gets taught in science class.

In science class, they should teach science, not pseudoscience.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3671397 - 01/24/05 07:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)


EVOLUTION IS A FACT RANDALLFLAGG. What isnt known is the mechanism behind it. We know it happened, and is still happening, but we dont know why in other words. It could be that a God is shaping it but that is highly unlikely. On the whole, adn yes there are execptions, each new peice of science that is learned on the subject supports Natural Selection. You can literally line up fossils and see evolution in stages it is undeniable. so your definately wrong on that one.


Man, even the proponents of evolution don't know anything about it...

We had YOUR picture of evolution before Darwin came along. What Darwin did was EXPLAIN THE MECHANISM OF EVOLUTION.

It's called natural selection. We know why species die and how they change.

Please, please, please educate yourself about evolution before trying to argue in favor of it, or you're just going to end up spreading misinformation. There's enough of that going around as it is.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: religion in politics [Re: Phluck]
    #3671413 - 01/24/05 07:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Evolution = Fact. If you believe oterwise you are simply wrong and ignorant if scientific data.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: religion in politics [Re: Phluck]
    #3671422 - 01/24/05 07:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

there are justifiable doubts about Darwiniin(sp?) evolution. Natural selection isnt the proven mechanism behind evolution all we really know for sure is that there is evolution, and before Darwin evolution was not regarded as science at all. It was more of less blasfamy(sp?). So no we did not have MY version of evolution before him.

Now to clarify something I believe that Natural selection is correct, but its NOT proven. and yes i realize that no science is fool proof, but Natural selection has more problems than alot of other branches of science. like i said before all we know FOR SURE is that evolution happened and that its
continuing.

"It's called natural selection. We know why species die and how they change."

No we dont. We think we know why they changed or why they died. It is bad science to make leaps of faith. all there really is supporting natural selection is a bunch of circumstantial evidence and conjectures. that has always been the problem with it. It is nearly impossible to test, due to the immense amount of time over which the changes happen.

It is bad science to make conjectures. the way you are talking about it, it seems like they should just go ahead and change it to the Law of Evolution tomarrow because by golly they got it all figured out.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3671427 - 01/24/05 08:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not getting the impression that you know what natural selection is.

This isn't the science forums though, go read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Oh, and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

the way you are talking about it, it seems like they should just go ahead and change it to the Law of Evolution tomarrow because by golly they got it all figured out.

Lots of scientists would agree, somewhat. Only you can't chage it to a law because you can't be a witness to the events of the past. We can test gravity over and over, but there's no way we can run a test that tells us the exact events of the past. Unless we invent time machines, it will always be referred to as the theory of evolution.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Edited by Phluck (01/24/05 08:13 AM)


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: religion in politics [Re: Phluck]
    #3671488 - 01/24/05 08:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

dont you see that even if we could go into the past and watch the animals it still wouldnt prove natural selection? how can radom mutations in genetic material be witnessed? they cannot. it will never be proven to be the mechanic behind evolution. for that matter i cant see that anything will ever really become a law of evolution so to speak. I think the important thing is that evolution happens. why it happens is not as important i mean what use is it to know that natural selection is without a doubt the mechenism behind it? what good could it possibly be used for? to say that because life adapts to its environments means that it is undeniably caused by Darwiniian Evolution is wrong. We cant know that natural selection makes life adapt, and we never will.

its not that big a deal to me. It just pisses me off when people say that there is no such thing as evolution. i just want to slap them. god those idiots make my blood boil.

I cant understand people that just deny scientific facts. It boggles my mind how their minds must work to be able to dismiss facts that are undeniable, and they really believe what they say. it makes no sense... its like they are beyond stupid.... most of those people aren't "stupid" in the sense that its not beyond their brain capacity to learn those things. They just dont want to. Why Why Why would you lie to yourself like that. Somewhere deep down they have to know that evolution is real or maybe not maybe they are just that dumb but i find it hard to accept that either its not fuckign rocket science or anything its pretty simple stuff really when you compare it to say, physics.


anyways i got a little off topic. sorry. My point is that there is no proof for natural selection, but there is evidence that supports it. That isnt enough to make it a scientific Law and its not enought to tell everyone that its a fact. Even if it is the most likely explanation. Evolution on the other hand IS a fact.

and now im tired im going to get some sleep.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: religion in politics [Re: blaze2]
    #3671490 - 01/24/05 08:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

My point is that there is no proof for natural selection, but there is evidence that supports it.

Same with evolution. You can't prove 100% that all those fossils are what the scientists say they are.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: religion in politics [Re: Phluck]
    #3672388 - 01/24/05 02:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)


We have TONS of scientific evidence that evolution is the system from which life originated.


Randalflagg said earlier:

I never said evolution wasn't fact. I said that how life came into being is in question. The Creationists haven't shown proof that God made stuff and the Evolutionists haven't shown proof that life came from non-life and that humans came from that.

That's the big problem of evolution; how did life originate from non-life. Anyway, this is getting off-topic.

But, what I was trying to say was that all of the mysteries of the origin of life are not known. And when all of the answers are not known, I think it is not smart to claim that we know the truth. I stand by my assertion that neither Creationism nor Evolution has yet been proven to be the origin of all life.


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