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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Diploid: voluntary/involuntary
    #6992020 -

this isnt just to Diploid, but I did want to catch his attention.

In regards to the brain vs soul debate, what does it mean when someone can willfully assume command of involuntary actions which are done solely by the brain and bypasses our thought?
such as heart rate, digestion, and pancreatic/liver function?
Now, i dont know about the last one, but the first two I have heard of being possible.
If we can override the brain, then doesnt there have to be something higher in the chain of command than your brain?

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992112 -

If we can override the brain, then doesnt there have to be something higher in the chain of command than your brain?

No, not if "you" are in fact a product of your brain.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: trendal]
    #6992135 -

And our brain is the product of what?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: trendal]
    #6992146 -

as some people, especially the scientific community, believe... "you" are the brain.
Even if you are part of the brain, and the brain is some greater entity in which you are encompassed in, then what would be the point of giving "you" power over the domain of involuntary biophysiology?
Are you saying that our brain is creating an illusion/delusion of power when in fact it had complete control the entire time?

Just kind of sounds like if i had a machine, that is solely controlled by a CPU, that that CPU even has control over the programmer that writes the code to control the machine..... when in reality, it would be the programmer that had supreme control over the machine.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992225 -

We aren't computers... :smirk:

But if we have a programmer, it isn't "us" who was programmed...existence was programmed, we're just one of the random defects in the mass of code that it is :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: trendal]
    #6992251 -

I am always befuddled at the concept of cephalic destiny.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992263 -

Explain, first what "cephalic destiny" is and then why you are befuddled by it.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992285 -

In regards to the brain vs soul debate, what does it mean when someone can willfully assume command of involuntary actions

I think it just means that the brain is pliable. It can learn to develop new neural pathways at will.

Learning to play the piano is hard. You can always tell a noob piano player. The timing of the notes is off and the intensity varies inappropriately. With practice, the neural pathways that perform these actions are refined until an accomplished pianist plays with near-perfect timing and inflection.

Writing with your unfavored hand is almost impossible at first, but it too improves as practice reinforces neural pathways.

So it goes with control of normally-involuntary body functions. With biofeedback, you can learn to control your blood pressure, heart rate and more. All it means is that your brain weaves new neural pathways to influence your autonomic nervous system.

I don't think this has implications for or against the existence of the soul.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: trendal]
    #6992325 -

trendal said:
Explain, first what "cephalic destiny" is and then why you are befuddled by it.


well, by cephalic destiny, I mean the omission of free will that stems from the belief (yes it is still a belief) that we are brains, that who we are, our personality, our actions, our thoughts and choices are ultimately controlled by 8 pounds of electrically conductive organic matter.
I am befuddled because it makes absolutely no sense to me to think this way.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992337 -

I am befuddled because it makes absolutely no sense to me to think this way.

It makes no sense to me to believe in something for which there is not the slightest shred of evidence. :shrug:

From where I sit, the Soul has the same credibility as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Both are represented by the same evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992344 -

It befuddles me as to why you would think that way, too :shrug:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: Diploid]
    #6992418 -

Diploid said:
In regards to the brain vs soul debate, what does it mean when someone can willfully assume command of involuntary actions

I think it just means that the brain is pliable. It can learn to develop new neural pathways at will.

Learning to play the piano is hard. You can always tell a noob piano player. The timing of the notes is off and the intensity varies inappropriately. With practice, the neural pathways that perform these actions are refined until an accomplished pianist plays with near-perfect timing and inflection.


but playing the piano is an overt action. It didnt come about through evolution or the fight for survival. Keeping the blood pumping through your body is an evolutionary need. nobody involuntarily plays piano (maybe some kids are forced, but you know what I mean).
Now, Im not saying this is the coup de grace of showing a soul exists, this is mental masturbation.... but if we can override the functions our brain is autonomously doing, then doesnt that mean that "we" are different than our brains?
it isnt like the brain is the obstacle keeping everyone from being the worlds best concert pianist. Where does the want arise from when we want to become the worlds greatest concert pianist? Does our brain make us believe that we made a completely autonomous decision to do so?


Quote:
Writing with your unfavored hand is almost impossible at first, but it too improves as practice reinforces neural pathways.



basically, what I am saying is that we KNOW that there are functions the brain carries out autonomous of the "self". now, it can be considered speculation that when we come to a fork in the road, that the self makes the decision to go left and the brain carried out those orders. Some could say that the brain actually made that choice, and some could go even further to claim that the brain gave us a delusional sense of personal choice....
but if we KNOW that (A) the brain carries out actions in an autonomous fashion, and that it is (B) possible for us to take control of these actions, then (c) doesnt there have to be something extrinsic to the brain that takes that control away?
Even if the brain is making that illusion of choice and control.... who/what is it giving it to?

it just sounds to me like some people believe that we are the brain, and as some self-preserving mechanism it has created the ego and subjected it to a constant stream of illusion, maybe for the sole purpose of fulfilling tangible needs through abstract insatiation... like sex drive. not to sound solipsist or like the Matrix, but even then, isnt there some part that exists?
The most basic of philosophical principles "i think therefor i am" gives way to some proof of an extrinsic autonomous entity, even if it is delusional regarding its actual existence.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992472 -

if we KNOW that (A) the brain carries out actions in an autonomous fashion, and that it is (B) possible for us to take control of these actions, then (c) doesnt there have to be something extrinsic to the brain that takes that control away?

No. The brain is divided into different regions that become active or inactive as a function of our will as well as others that are less accessible and perform functions automatically for us. This doesn't mean anything with regard to where the seat of consciousness resides.

When we work on math problems, certain regions of the brain are activated and others are not. When we're listening to music, different regions are active and inactive.

Just because we have still other regions not easily accessible to our will that do things in the background doesn't mean there's something outside the brain controlling things.

Automatic breathing takes places in the brainstem. There are groups of cells there that build up and release ions gated in such a way that a sinusoidal signal is sent to the diaphragm even when you're not thinking of it.

But at any time you can will a deep breath or hold your breath.

This will comes from the brain itself, not from some supernatural soul, or so the available evidence suggests.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: Diploid]
    #6992574 -

but as i read your post, i decided to "switch" on voluntary breathing, now am i controlling that, or is my brain? I understand ultimately that my brain is doing the real work, but If there is something overriding it, then what is it?

If you are running a company, you are the CEO, you make all the decisions. nothing gets done without your approval and your regulation... you disseminate every action taken..... now if someone comes in and starts giving you orders, even though you are disseminating those orders, are you still completely in charge?

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6992916 -

psilocyberin said:
but as i read your post, i decided to "switch" on voluntary breathing, now am i controlling that, or is my brain? I understand ultimately that my brain is doing the real work, but If there is something overriding it, then what is it?



I think the point that you make is that the brain has no central controller, and that the brain as a whole isn't necessarily a central controller of ourselves.

That is not to say that our actions don't tend to revolve around our brain. I see it like a tornado; everything revolves around the center, but the center isn't necessarily in control.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6993054 -

I understand ultimately that my brain is doing the real work, but If there is something overriding it, then what is it?

You're asking the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. I dunno the answer, unless you'll take 42. :wink:

But here's what I think:

I think consciousness is an emergent property of the available elements in the universe.

Emergence, in a nutshell, is the unexpected rise of complexity from simple systems that do not appear to be capable of the complex form.

When considering a relatively simple neuron, it does not seem like consciousness could ever come from it. Neurons are essentially just simple chemical switches. Yet when billions are assembled in a brain, voila, a self-aware personality emerges.

I can't say for sure that this is how consciousness comes to be, but I can draw parallels from other examples of emergence in nature that lead me to believe consciousness is the most complex form of emergence we know.

Examples of emergence include hurricanes from air molecules, complex giant ant colonies from ants, huge monolithic swarms of locusts from many single insects, galaxies from disparate atoms.

Take a locust (flying grasshopper) for example. They rarely fly, bump into things and appear uncoordinated when they do, and are lethargic the rest of the time. Under certain conditions, giant masses of them take to the air and fly for miles. But instead of an uncoordinated scramble, the mass of flying locusts exhibits well coordinated flying, stays together in a giant blob, and they all land at the same time when they spot a field planted with food crops.

The well-coordinated swarming behavior is an emergent property of the locust because single locusts can't even fly straight.

It turns out that there are structures in the locust brain hard wired to follow-the-leader. These structures allow the emergent swarming behavior that is totally absent in a single locust. When a single locust flies, it is in a dizzy randomness that usually ends when it flies into a wall. Put millions of them together and a graceful, coordinated ballet in the air emerges from a swarm that could be a kilometer or more in diameter.

The swarm behaves almost like it is a single giant organism. The coordination is by the linkage of flying muscles to sight via some analog algorithm in their brain. This is remarkably similar to how brain neuron coordination is by myelin and neurotransmitters, probably also guided by some analog algorithm neurologists haven't characterized yet.

Because of this and many other examples in nature, I lean toward the idea that we are nothing more than an emergent property of neurons just like locust swarms are an emergent property of locusts.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: Diploid]
    #6993057 -

Diploid said:
I am befuddled because it makes absolutely no sense to me to think this way.

It makes no sense to me to believe in something for which there is not the slightest shred of evidence. :shrug:

From where I sit, the Soul has the same credibility as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Both are represented by the same evidence.


in that same light I dont think there is any more evidence for cephalic destiny than there is for the soul.
The only reason that one oculd choose cephalic destiny over a soul is that we can see the brain... we know for a fact that it exists.
But, the fundamental structure which psychology sits upon is no less of a belief than those that believe in the FSM.
when you set illusory parameters for what you want to accomplish when solely in the realm of the subjective, and you fulfill those parameters, it isnt scientific evidence, it is idealistic fluff.
when we say that student A only retained 30% of his economics book, and then jump to the conclusion based on a belief being considered fact, such as the existence of a tangible attention span, and say that he has a "very small attention span".... what have you accomplished beyond subjective and useless taxonomy?

But its proof! because we made up this concept, and gave something a name and a reason based on the framework of this concept... and lo and behold it fits! its gotta be logical.

remember that lack of evidence isnt evidence against.

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6993078 -

in that same light I dont think there is any more evidence for cephalic destiny

Oh but there IS. Not a lot, but that's because it's only recently that machines able to probe the deepest structures in a living brain were invented. Neurological science has advanced more in the last 20 years than it did in the last 2000 years.

I think it's only a matter of time (maybe in our lifetime) that the brain will be fully understood and replicated by science.

I hope I live long enough to see that happen!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: Diploid]
    #6993198 -

Diploid said:
in that same light I dont think there is any more evidence for cephalic destiny

Oh but there IS. Not a lot, but that's because it's only recently that machines able to probe the deepest structures in a living brain were invented. Neurological science has advanced more in the last 20 years than it did in the last 2000 years.

I think it's only a matter of time (maybe in our lifetime) that the brain will be fully understood and replicated by science.

I hope I live long enough to see that happen!



Wait a second, let me get this straight. From your standpoint, our actions, perceptions, and our sensations are completly controlled by the brain, and we are a perhaps a lifetime from completely understanding it? This pretty much solves all our existencial uncertainties as well eh?

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Re: Diploid: voluntary/involuntary [Re: Diploid]
    #6993221 -

No matter how much we analyze and understand the chemical interaction, wavelengths given off etc., its going to be a large leap in understanding to how these characteristics actually interpret to our reality.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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