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Offline11polakie11
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Philosophy and "spiritual" living
    #695039 - 06/22/02 08:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

ok, during the zen of my teeth brushing some thoughts occured

in yoga and i know in buddhism a lot of the focus is on removing pain and attachemnts, but why does the removal of pain and extreme self denial of some of these spiritualities qualify them as spiritualities? I don't see how we humans devised that ridding ourselves of painful experiences is spiritual, because it seems to me that they are inevitable, maybe that is just the ego? then why destroy the ego, if it is with us is it necessary to live? ...i just wonder if all the spirituality stuff is needed if it is about living a less painful existence than others or about keeping the mind elsewhere than HERE...any thoughts? I'd love thoughts and opinions and beleifs about this, I am really curious as to what the dilly yo yo could be..


adam


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #695175 - 06/23/02 12:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think, at least with Zen (not familiar with Yoga), that the idea is not removing painful experiences but the ability to except and move beyond pain. Make sense?



--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offline3wolves
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Re: Philosophy and 'spiritual' living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #695473 - 06/23/02 03:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

nice to meet you all.
hehe 11...i too had insights when cleaning my teeth this morning, but i will leave what for a later time.
youmention Zen? it just so happens i beling to an online zen community. not cause i'm 'Zen' but it seems pretty open-minded, ...in a 'way'. i have very much noticed a defensiveness and fear when hallucinogens are mentions. and the topic is soon 'pushed off' the list hehehe

one 'zennist' was honest enough to confess that the sesual visioary effects of hallucinogenic experience were'delusional' the term they use is 'Mara'.
thing is whan you do get challengined in argument, for me at least it spurs me on to find out shit. so i researched 'Mara'. i find out it is 'of course' a feminie term denoting a 'Goddess of Evil' in buddhism.
so the bones of this 'zen-fear' is that sensual experience is somehow 'wrong' cause the phenomenal world is illusory. so immersing onself in it is also delusionary. so their answer is to sit upght on a cushion, eyes half closed and go after their goal of 'emptiness'. to me that is zombiefication, but many aint listenin


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Offline3wolves
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Re: Philosophy and 'spiritual' living [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #695477 - 06/23/02 03:22 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

how does one post a NEw topic here. it all 'seems' confusing to this ne stranger...please xplain as imply as poss


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Philosophy and 'spiritual' living [Re: 3wolves]
    #695492 - 06/23/02 03:33 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hey there........just go back out to the page with the list of topics on it and look just above the first topic(thread) on the page and you will see somehing that says POST.........you just click on that and start your own thred......good luck and have fun hehe


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offline11polakie11
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #695624 - 06/23/02 05:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

OK, so if the goal of those practices is to accept and move beyong pain, why not accept and move beyong happyiness too? that would be complete emotional detatchment..I just can't seem to find the root of this beleif. One part of me feels that everything we are given is necessary and is thereforeusefol. Another part says get rid of the painful crap..

adam


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #695639 - 06/23/02 06:39 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

When in doubt dump it all! There is a root source of Joy/Peace underlying all so called "emotions"(literally a "disturbance")........that far trancends our normal definition of "happy"......which is usually based on external conditions anyway and as such is only a temporary respite from the pain that is it's opposite


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #695690 - 06/23/02 07:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

>>but why does the removal of pain and extreme self denial of some of these spiritualities qualify them as spiritualities?

Buddhism does NOT teach any form of denial. It emancipates total denial. Buddhism teaches you how to assess how your mind is labelling all phenomena that you experience. It is our ignorance of mind that causes all the suffering we endure. The whole point of the Buddha's teachings can be summed up like this: Happiness is all around us. Suffering is all around us too. It is important to realize when our minds are causing suffering and to remove this conditioning. Enjoy life in it's totality all the time...just don't become attached to any given dependent-arising phenomena (like becoming attached to the notion of when you'll have sex again, or see someone you love again, etc. This attachment is a mental distortion and causes the suffering). Buddhism doesn't teach that you need to deny yourself anything. It simply teaches to enjoy each and every thing in your life FOR WHAT IT IS...not what you want it to be or think it is.

Here's a good personal experience I can relate to you. I recently had to sell my entire DJ gear and studio in order to make ends meet cause I'm unemployed. I did so without any upset, anger or sadness. My complete happiness is knowing that it's only transient. I can get the gear all back in the future. More examples of how Tibetan Buddhism has helped me grow:

I used to be very jealous and angry. Until I started meditating I always wrote off "others" as being the asshole...and meditation helped me realize that it was my mind and perception of others that was the "asshole." People have this incredible nack for making assumptions and reading into other people's words and actions...this was my most serious flaw. Meditation has helped me realize when my mental patterns start reacting to stressful situations and I am able to mentally "stop" and allow myself to see everything for what it is. As a result I don't get as angry as often, I don't over react to stressful situations and I am able to express myself much better. This is what meditation and Buddhism teach. How to realize your mental habits and remove those that bring you suffering.

This doesn't mean to live in denial of suffering. If someone hits you, you hurt. That's only one form of suffering and there are certain forms of suffering that we cannot change. Buddhism teaches to accept those forms of suffering but not to live in fear of them. Suffering of change is the biggest one that most peeps in our culture tend to experience the most. All experience, all things in this world are impermanent. If you can accept impermanence you can enjoy all things in life without attaching to anything in particular.

I'm not a very good "teacher" so I'm sorry if this post isn't very clear...but I want to stress that Buddhism is not about denial. It is about total acceptance of emptiness and impermanence. All things created but fall apart; all that is born must die. Enjoy each and every moment in your life and do not run away from your suffering. Learn to identify the suffering you cause yourself...you can transform it into joy. I'm living proof.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: Boppity604]
    #695698 - 06/23/02 08:04 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

As always man, that was very well put.......thanx


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: Boppity604]
    #696098 - 06/23/02 12:42 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

when you say you meditate, can you please explain what exactly you are doing? Do u sit down in a cross legged position? is meditation clearing your mind of all thought? what does the term meditation mean to you?


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #696135 - 06/23/02 12:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

I don't see how we humans devised that ridding ourselves of painful experiences is spiritual, because it seems to me that they are inevitable, maybe that is just the ego?




First of all, when monks and guru's talk about being spiritual they mean being aware. Aware of your existence, aware of nature's existence, aware of your mind, aware of your emotions, and so forth. To be truly aware of everything in your life is to live to the fullest, is it not? If you see everything for what it is then you will be able to make intelligent decisions on how to live your life better, happier, and to the fullest. But where do pain, sorrow, and anger exist in our world? Why are they here? They exist in our mind because we attach ourselves to things that we will lose (nothing is forever). Also, pain (emotional, not physical) exists in our mind. Why does it exist there and what does it do? It exists because our mind is contantly searching for something 'better', because it knows something 'better' exists. We are rarely content with what we have or where we are, and therefore we rarely enjoy the moment, we are always seeking something greater. This pain in our minds is a product of the past. We think about what we want and what we have and compare that to what others want and have and this creates the pain. This pain that is a product of the past, past experiences, distorts our vision of the present. These past experiences and memories that no longer exist in our world distort our vision of the present. So your past pains and plaesures condition your mind so you no longer see the truth of the situation. Reality is distorted with all your likes and dislikes, and your emotions. So if you are truly aware of the present pain and sorrow cannot exist, and the ego is conditioned and can never see the world truely. You will never enjoy the moment and you will spend your life chasing things that wont make you happy, even if you do achieve them. Most people realize this when it is too late and their lives are nearly over.

I tried my best to explain this in what little writting I could but I'm sure I left a few things out or failed to explain something clearly somewhere. If you are really interested read a Krishnamurti book. I know I always mention him but thats because I learned nearly everything I post in this forum from his books. They are easy reads and quite interesting.



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Offline11polakie11
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: chodamunky]
    #696139 - 06/23/02 12:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

ok but still i ask you does buddhism then qualify as spirituality becusets its philosophy shifts a person into a being who has less suffering than another? I mean ithelps one mold a life that is much less painful than others i agree, and by releasing attachemnts of any kind the pains in life are quite diminished - dammit, i had something insightful going on in my brain and I lost it....

adam


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #696182 - 06/23/02 01:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I must admit, I am not a Buddhist so I do not exactly fit all their beliefs and could not explain them all fittingly. As for myself, I honor and remeber the pain and express grief over the things that make me sad and when that's all done I take what I learn from it and move on.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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InvisibleKarmaPolice
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #696517 - 06/23/02 05:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well I'm not answering your question, as I've never studied Buddhism, but here's me if you're interested. I'm not usually a happy person, but I'm perfectly content. I don't smile much, and don't really care to unless I have something at that moment to be happy about. I don't try to ignore pain, because pain doesn't really bother me too much. I don't mind being lonely, and don't mind being sad. I don't think you should ever try to remove any emotion. It is a part of you. It's kind of hard to explain how I am perfectly content, but not happy. It's almost like I'm happy to be sad, or to be nothing. It's not that I'm not grateful or appreciative of my life, I simply don't choose to express it through emotion.

Sometimes customers at work get on to me for not smiling. I always ask, "why should I?"


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: KarmaPolice]
    #696616 - 06/23/02 05:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

ok but still i ask you does buddhism then qualify as spirituality becusets its philosophy shifts a person into a being who has less suffering than another?




I'm not quite sure what your asking, but buddhism is based on teachings originally taught by buddha. You can call it a religion or a spirituality but it is simply teachings. It has aquired many followers and has built up some tradition but at heart it is simply awareness and understanding.

In reply to:

I don't try to ignore pain, because pain doesn't really bother me too much. I don't mind being lonely, and don't mind being sad. I don't think you should ever try to remove any emotion. It is a part of you.




Emotion doesnt come with your body, your mind creates it, it does't need to exist. Your mind creates it through measurement and comparison. If you look at everything as it is, without comparing and measuring and labeling, these emotions will not exist. You dont 'remove' them, you overcome them. When you say emotions are a part of you, have you ever thought what 'you' is? Is it your experiences, your emotions, your mind, your body? When you were first born, were you 'you' then?

I have also lived my life content. But I noticed that I'm always looking forward to events. Whether its a party or meeting a girl or travelling, I'm always planning something in the future, which there is nothing wrong with. But when the time comes to have fun and do whatever I've been planning on doing, I find that at that moment I'm not much happier than any other moment, and even when I am, its over so quick. Then I try to recreate the moment in the future and it never makes me very happy. It seems like I try something that I think will make me happy, the I realize that it only brings me pleasure. Pleasure can never bring happiness, pleasure only leads to a craving for more pleasure. I dont mind being content, but I'd rather be happy.


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: Buddha1]
    #696881 - 06/23/02 07:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'm honored to meet you gentlemen and gentlewomen tonight!

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineInDiCaToRgReEn
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: Boppity604]
    #696972 - 06/23/02 08:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

one may move above suffering to change there perception of it. you must recognize that suffering is illusion in the sense that in welcoming it you dissolve its reality cause you except it as part of your being and nothing about you can ever be negative, but it can seem that way, and suffering serves its purpose for you only if it is dissolved and once you learn to do this depression can be stopped and the snap of your fingers cause you are accepting it into your reality as part of your being essential for you to decide who you are here on earth, soon it will appear that everything is with you not against you. I am having this experience and the way i understand it is that i simply acknowledge the percieved obstacles along my path and bless them for what victory is gained in knowing who you are by simply knowing and not being able to experience your knowing through those same thought suffering obstacles.


--------------------
"oh to be a kid again, not a worry in the world except mybe the lack of bubbles in the bath tub"


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Philosophy and 'spiritual' living [Re: 3wolves]
    #697604 - 06/24/02 06:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

one 'zennist was honest enough to confess that the sesual visioary effects of
hallucinogenic experience were'delusional' the term they use is 'Mara'.


Oh, bullshit. Ask them about ignorance. Though these things may be called "hallucinogens", the actual appearance of hallucinations depends pretty much on your mindset. I've done shrooms for several years, sometimes as frequently as once a week, with dosage sometimes as high as five grams, and I never ever experienced one single hallucination. The assertion that drugs necessariliy belong to Mara (being the world of illusions) is crap. You can experience Mara during meditation - what you do is, you simply ignore the hallucinations, you ignore them and they disappear. Same with drugs. Of course, the world of Mara can be quite fun sometimes. Here's a non-ignorant take on psychedelics by Alan Watts:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/watts.htm


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: 11polakie11]
    #698012 - 06/24/02 11:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The ego, 'ahamkara,' in classical Yoga, is one's center of consciousness. It is NOT the Center of one's entire psyche or being. Because the ego is constructed, by and large, of sense data and the rational mind, we have come to believe that we are this physical body and all the memories that we have of the body's sensory and mental experiences.

A certain 'Right Belief' is part of the Eightfold path in Buddhism, but this derives from the earlier Hindu Yoga, and that belief is that we as humans are not the sum total of our psychophysical experiences. We are beings, and our true nature includes the dimension from which our psychophysical (mind-body) nature derives. The ancient word is 'spirit,' but consciousness is more popular today. In order to experience ourselves AS spirit, we must quiet the mind and body, the thinking mind and senses, in order to allow our ego or perspective to become aware of the vaster but more subtle nature of consciousness. The spiritual path, regardless of the tradition seeks to identify oneself with consciousness in its formless, transcendental state. As long as one is concerned with the body and its sense life, and the rational, discursive, form-identified mind, one remains fairly 'egocentric' rather than its opposite: Christocentric in Christianity, or Vajrasattvic in Tibetan Buddhism, 'Atmancentric' in some Hinduism.

It is not a matter of destroying one's ego, it is a matter of disidentifying with the psychophysical experience, both pleasurable and painful, and Knowing that one's essential nature is either very similar to, or identical with the Consciousness that underlies all of the phenomenal world. There are many, many techniques, and there are examples of extremely masochistic individuals who became regarded as particularly holy because of their outward masochistic displays of asceticism. These are aberrant, and not the Middle Way of Buddhism, nor the Way of Christ Whose Way is joy and celebration, not asceticism. Excesses in pleasure are likewise not the Middle Way of either Great Pathfinder, whether lust, gluttony, greed and so on. These experiences never lead to transcendental joy, and can prevent such joy from occurring. One however who is filled with the joy of Mukti, of Liberation, of the Holy Spirit IS free to do all things, yet excess brings one down and may interfere with being Compassionate - which is motive Number One in an Enlightened being. Just exactly how to experience transcendental awareness, and secondly, how to remain aware of that perspective moment-to-moment becomes the Great Work of every aspirant of the Truth.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: Philosophy and "spiritual" living [Re: chodamunky]
    #699849 - 06/25/02 09:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

when you say you meditate, can you please explain what exactly you are doing? Do u sit down in a cross legged position? is meditation clearing your mind of all thought? what does the term meditation mean to you?

I know you weren't asking me... but I will give you my interpretation of meditation.
Meditation is clearing thoughts from the mind for the goal of being in a state of nothingness. When I meditate, I focus on nothing and any distractions or thoughts that enter my mind I quikcly get rid of. The goal is to not let any thoughts in your mind. You can meditate in a cross-legged position, sure.. that is usually the most comfortable position for people who meditate for long periods of time, which is probably why it is the most common. But to meditate, you don't need to be sitting or even have your eyes closed. You can do it in line at the grocery store. It's a state of mind.. a state of nothingness... being able to clear your mind on command. By meditating, one major thing that you learn is the ability to control your thoughts at a higher degree. You can decide which thoughts get filtered into that conscious mind of yours, and unwanted or negative thoughts, while they will make appearances no doubt, you may still get rid of them easily. There is many benefits to meditation, but for me, the most important one is the training of the mind.. you will find yourself able to focus much more clearly and easily.


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