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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors * 2
    #5940197 - 08/07/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I rarely start new threads anymore, but the same questions and misunderstandings seem to keep popping up regarding what makes our fungi enter the pinning stage. The reply below is one I posted in another thread earlier, so I'll take the liberty of cutting and pasting it here for those who would otherwise miss it. Hopefully it will stimulate some more research and discussion on everyone's part and clear up a few things. Here it is:

LIGHT IS NOT THE MAJOR PINNING TRIGGER FOR MUSHROOMS!

In fact, light isn't even the major factor in which direction mushrooms grow. Wind or other air currents is the first. Light is the second, then finally gravity is the third.

As for pinning, full colonization of the substrate is the most important pinning trigger. If there are contaminants present in a substrate, the mushroom mycelium generally stops growing when it contacts them. This represents full colonization because the mycelium has hit a natural barrier, and often pins begin to develop, whether light is present or not.

The second most important pinning trigger is an increase in air exchange, with the corresponding drop in CO2 levels that occurs simultaneously. When you uncover a tray to look at it, you allow the CO2 to escape and be replaced by fresh air. THIS is a pinning trigger, even if you do it in the dark.

Third, which goes along with second, is a steady rate of evaporation of moisture from the substrate or casing layer. In the artifical environment of a small tray, we must mist to keep the substrate or casing from drying out, but we also must allow that moisture to evaporate off between mistings.

Fourth, when the above three triggers are active, light becomes a pinning/growth initiation factor.

If one waits too long to apply the casing layer, or the other factors listed above are in effect prior to light OR the casing layer being applied, primordia will begin to form, which will then push up through to the surface, whether or not it has been fully or even partially colonized. By the same token, if light is applied and the other, more important factors have not been met, primordia will NOT form.

This is why experienced growers, such as commercial spawn producers who make their entire living incubating mushroom mycelium, make absolutely NO effort to incubate in the dark. It isn't necessary. People will have much more success in the hobby when they understand that.
RR


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5940214 - 08/07/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Good info.

Iono about light being so unimportant though. Maybe not as a trigger but i have seen tons of photos with mushies growing directly towards the direction light is coming from.

I would say, if you can help it put the lights directly above.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5940237 - 08/07/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I completely agree.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: Yamidude]
    #5940247 - 08/07/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Very true.  However, as an experiment, you can put the light above and a fan blowing from right to left.  Watch what happens.

In the absence of any wind, the mushrooms grow towards the light.  You can also screw with your mushrooms if you're bored.  Every morning, rotate your trays of pinning/fruiting mushrooms by 90 degrees, and leave them until the next morning, then rotate them an additional 90 degrees.  They'll grow up in a spiral. :smile:
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5940263 - 08/07/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

keke, i want to see if i can grow a tray that look like the Zong brand water pipes..


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Offline76degrees
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: Yamidude]
    #5940302 - 08/07/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I heard that growing in the dark helps ward off contamns that need light to grow. Is there any truth to the cliam?


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The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.


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OfflineDnBMiXer
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: Yamidude]
    #5940322 - 08/07/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

ok then im probably just being impatient
its my first grow attempt so im kind of nervous about this working


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: 76degrees]
    #5940345 - 08/07/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

76degrees said:
I heard that growing in the dark helps ward off contamns that need light to grow. Is there any truth to the cliam?




Total myth.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineDnBMiXer
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5940357 - 08/07/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

and i was asking wheter i should take my jars out of the dark and put them in the light in other words does light help speed up colonization


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: DnBMiXer]
    #5940425 - 08/07/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DnBMiXer said:

does light help speed up colonization




no

proper temps speed up colonization.



tc

----

RR,

Nice write up bro!~

:thumbup: :thumbup:



tc


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PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineDnBMiXer
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: Roadkill]
    #5940427 - 08/07/06 11:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

well ive been keep the jars between 79 and 85 degrees


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Yes thats a smurf sucking a titty


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Offlinenotnamed000
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: DnBMiXer]
    #5941025 - 08/07/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so if a contaminate is present the before colonizationit will trigger the myc to go into pin mode? I think that may have happen to me. I see a bit od yellow on the top of my casing and kinda clean it of with a sterile spoon what do you suggest i do with the rest of my casing if there is a contaminate? Ipinning like crazy and I reallly dont want to throw it away. should I spray the casind down with peroxide


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: notnamed000]
    #5941301 - 08/07/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yellow on top of the casing layer is likely just metabolytes. Is it a yellow liquid? If so, leave it alone, there's nothing wrong. If you get green molds, take it outside and put it in the shade until you pick the fruits, then bury it.

What I meant above about pinning early in the presence of contaminants is when you see pinning in a jar prior to full colonization. It's because the mycelium ran up against the contaminant and said, "oh heck, this stuff might kick my butt. I better reproduce by dropping some spores so I'll survive". That's why they pin. It's not because you had the light on when you checked the jars.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinesoulsizzle
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: notnamed000]
    #5941303 - 08/07/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the great info. It explains a lot. However, I have noticed on more than premature pinning has occured before full colonization when too much light exposure occurs.


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Offlinenotnamed000
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: soulsizzle]
    #5941369 - 08/07/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

its like within the myc growth, like a tint of yellow


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Offlinecanadarocks
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: notnamed000]
    #5943408 - 08/08/06 08:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So could you check my shroom knowledge:

1) Primary pinning signal: CO2 levels drop.

2) Use light or wind to help signal mushrooms which way to grow.

3) Light is not in any way detrimental to mycelium growth rates or colonization? (but may trigger pinning in wrong locations after colonization, so ensure no light penetrates sides/bottom when colonization almost finished.)

4) To confirm: Amount of light per day does not determine, in any important way, how many pins or how many mushroomers grow?
(example: 12 hours a day of 40watt light vs. 1 hour a day 15watt light).

How am I doing so far?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: canadarocks]
    #5943426 - 08/08/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Pretty good. However, it only takes a bit of light to help trigger primordia, but takes more to help them grow into pins and mature.

You won't use wind to help them know which way to grow. You'll use light. I put that sentence in because it's a common mistake to believe that only light determines direction of growth.

I would say that the two biggest pinning triggers are full colonization, and a drop in CO2 levels, in that order. Light is third in that list, with a steady rate of evaporation of moisture from the substrate coming in fourth. The key to a great pinset is to harmonize all the factors so they all come at once.

Many experienced growers also consider a drop in temperature important, and I respect their viewpoint. I simply disagree as to the importance of a temperature drop when it comes to tropical species. In the summertime, my fruiting chambers/greenhouses are typically five to ten degrees warmer than the open shelves I 'incubate' on at room temperature, so my substrates actually see an increase in temperature at fruiting time due to the heat put off by the lights. I see no difference in pinsets at all, so I've come to the conclusion over the years that temperature is irrelevant with tropical species.

Bear in mind, with shiitake, azurescens/p cyanescens certain oyster species, shaggy manes, agaricus, and others, you definitely need a temperature drop.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5943848 - 08/08/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I will add although light in the milliseconds is all thats needs to trigger pins intensity/duration does indeed have an effect on how prolific your pinsets will be just as higher than optimum CO2 concentrations will limit primordia formation. What I preach is optimize all parameters for best results but anything less is usually just as rewarding to most. Now understand people temps absolutely do play a factor! It is a proven fact that there is a temp which myc's vegetative growth is the fastest (84-86F) and there is also an optimum fruiting temp (74-77F) which IME is most important for pinsetting but after pins are set then warmer temps IME will hasten growth somewhat but remember these warmer temps can also give contams the upper hand. Bottom line mushrooms are very versatile and will grow throughout a wide range BUT they will only proliferate when all parameters are optimal.


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factor [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6360597 - 12/12/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

rr: " ...the mycelium ran up against the contaminant and said, "oh heck, this stuff might kick my butt. I better reproduce by dropping some spores..."

how interesting.
if you mess up your "pinning strategy"for whatever reason, and the myc has now become some-how complacent, smug in the notion it can safely sit and munch away at it's grain in no great hurry to fruit. untill it finds it has company, competing for not just it's food supply, but perhaps it's very existence... eek!

something to consider:
the question arises, would introducing a little colonised grain of a different strain/specie into this cosy little world, eg colonised 'pan' grain into a non-pinning 'cube' tray, for instance,induce the same "butt kick" panic reaction as a more deadly contaminant ? ie sees this new competitor as a contaminant,and fruits asap.
i havn't read of anyone trying this,or have a clue how to search for such.
might be worth a go,at least as a last resort before dumping as a "non fruiting"strain.
maybe all they need is a good butt kicking.


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Offlinebigbird123
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Re: Attention New Growers - Pinset Initiation Factors [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16626327 - 08/01/12 02:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

with all this being true i find it very odd that my best pin set came from underneath my cake.. absent fresh air and absent light. could that mean the one true pin trigger is full colonization and condensation only for pin setting???





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