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M Theory and the multiverse
    #5764894 -

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, M theory opens the door to infinite universes, in which everything possible happens. I was wondering, if this is true, then what's to stop people from another universe from figuring out how to travel into this one? If there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities, shouldn't there be an infinite number of people traveling into our universe?


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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5764928 -

Yes and in an infinite number of universes that's the case. And in an infinite number it isn't. I know I can't wrap my head around it either.

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5765585 -

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, M theory opens the door to infinite universes, in which everything possible happens.

M theory opens the door to essentially infinite universes (but not actually infinite). Everything that can happen does happen in one or more of these universes.

Unless the universe itself is infinite in size, there are only a finite number of possible combinations for the matter/energy contained in the universe. A finite number of possibilities means a finite number of universes.

Granted, the actual number of possibilities/universes is so astronomically large as to be essentially infinite to human standards.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: trendal]
    #5765670 -

Quote:
"O king of the Devas, I have known the dreadful
dissolution of the universe, turning it into a huge
mass of water void of all sign of animate being. I
have seen all perish again and again, at the end of
every cycle. Who will count the universes that have
passed away, or the creations that have arisen again
and again, from the formless abyss of the vast waters?
Who will search through the wide infinity of space to
count the universes side by side, each containing its
own Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva? Who will number the
Indras in them all, reigning in all the innumerable
worlds; those others who have passed away before them;
or even the Indras who succeed each other in any given
line, one by one, ascending to kingship, and one by
one, passing away? O king of the Devas, there are
among your servants who maintain that it may be
possible to number the grains of sand on earth and the
drops of rain that fall from the sky, but no one will
ever number all those Indras. This is what the Knowers
Know."


--from the "Brahmavaivarta Purana" (ca. 400 A.D.)


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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Papaver]
    #5765942 -

I just typed out a hasty post criticizing the introduction of superstition into a scientific discussion...

Then I realized string theory is more or less superstition in and of itself, so I un-typed it...


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5766180 -

Hehehe...

I wouldn't call the Bible, or the Koran, or the Vedic writings superstition. What I quoted above is metaphor, and it's a metaphor that existed 1600 years before this thread was created. It's only superstition if you confuse the map for the territory, the denotation for the connotation, the poetry for the prose.

Fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims make this same mistake when they confuse the Bible, or the Koran, with history or science. Unfortunately, by doing so, they lose the true meaning and beauty of what those great texts can communicate.

Science and religion are not in competition with each other; they are complimentary of each other. Religion and spirituality are an important part of what it is to be human. To deny man's need for spiritual programming, as well as economic, political, and scientific programming, makes for kind of a dispassionate, bland, creature. It is life without wonder, without poetry, without art; design maybe, but not art.

Quote:
"So, listen, that taught me a lesson. This is a metaphor. Good. Nobody knows what the hell a metaphor is. All religions are mythological. You see what that means. They don't realize that Yahweh is a metaphor. The terrible thing about Yahweh is, he didn't realize it either! He thought he was the connotation, don't you see? So, when a metaphor is read with reference not to the connotation but to the denotation, it's a lie. Hence atheism."

--Joseph Campbell


I was simply pointing out the timeless universal beauty and poetry in things like super-string theory and M-theory, and the universality of such quests for understanding and attempts to codify the chaos of the unknown into labels and words. And I wanted to share a fragment of Hindu writing from 1600 years ago, which summed it up pretty nicely in poetry. :smile:


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Edited by Papaver (06/19/06 12:05 AM)

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Papaver]
    #5766563 -

Papaver said:
Hehehe...

I wouldn't call the Bible, or the Koran, or the Vedic writings superstition.


We differ there.

:smile:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5766927 -

What do you expect to come, a human-like english-speaking parallel-world alien saying "oi! we're neighbors!". Maybe they already came, but took the form of mice and have been completely overlooked, heh.


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Drugs in me, my report blog

Peyote Nethack!

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: funnybunny]
    #5767465 -

Mice? Have you been reading the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?


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A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: funnybunny]
    #5767663 -

funnybunny said:
What do you expect to come, a human-like english-speaking parallel-world alien saying "oi! we're neighbors!". Maybe they already came, but took the form of mice and have been completely overlooked, heh.


Well, given an infinite number of universes, I would assume they'd come in infinite forms.


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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5767905 -

Silversoul said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, M theory opens the door to infinite universes, in which everything possible happens.  I was wondering, if this is true, then what's to stop people from another universe from figuring out how to travel into this one?  If there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities, shouldn't there be an infinite number of people traveling into our universe?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we seem to have an almost infinite amount of life spontaneously appearing behind us in time-space? I mean, there is theoretically a scientific explanation for the replication of life, but there is no real explanation for how new personalities and seemingly individual consciousnesses can come to exist.

What if the result of someone in some other universe further in the future figuring out time travel is them travelling "back" to (for example) 2001 to be born as your niece or nephew?

Who knows. I don't know. :shrug: Fun to contemplate though. Maybe the only reason we exist as individuals here is because we chose to exist here from some other place before it.

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5768117 -

You are assuming those entities are "compatible" with our own laws of physics, that's why I said mice (yeah, joking about HHGG). Even the most minimal change (those are infinite, too, and you must include those not minimal) could make this universe deadly for them.

Anyway, given an infinite number of universes, you want here to come beings intelligent enough to travel through universes (branes, intersection of branes... of a variety of dimensions), to be compatible with our universe, to have a complete manifestation in our universe (or ours :wink:), to search for the Earth inside our entire and potentially dangerous universe...

Infinity * infinitesimal = mostly anything.


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Drugs in me, my report blog

Peyote Nethack!

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: funnybunny]
    #5768551 -

funnybunny said:
Infinity * infinitesimal = mostly anything.


wouldnt it be

Infinity * infinitesimal = everything

?

peace

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: supra]
    #5768688 -

Since "Inf*Infinitesimal" is meaningless, your can make it whatever you want it to be. Neither infinity or an infinitesimal are numbers so multiplying them makes no sense. The best you can do is something like the following: "Lim(x-->Inf), Lim(y-->0) x*y". But as written, that's indeterminate.

I think this thread belongs in a different forum.

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5769702 -

M theory is interesting to me but it seems a little like the scientists who came up with it are sort of grasping a straws, and though i obviously don't know as much about it as them and they do have all the math behind it i think there will be a new theory in about 100 years.

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: ictoasnrnsigwt]
    #5771412 -

He, probably there'll be a new theory in 4 years! Let alone 100 :rolleyes:


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:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5771425 -

Silversoul said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, M theory opens the door to infinite universes, in which everything possible happens. I was wondering, if this is true, then what's to stop people from another universe from figuring out how to travel into this one? If there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities, shouldn't there be an infinite number of people traveling into our universe?


Its generally regarded in the world of modern physics that if you get an inifite answer to an equation (especially in quantum physics) you have gone wrong somewhere in your calculations. At the moment the furthest we can speculate is that 11 demensions exist (including the time dimension). This is according to string theory and is very far away from being an experimentally proven fact.


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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Sinbad]
    #5772150 -

Sinbad said:
Silversoul said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, M theory opens the door to infinite universes, in which everything possible happens. I was wondering, if this is true, then what's to stop people from another universe from figuring out how to travel into this one? If there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities, shouldn't there be an infinite number of people traveling into our universe?


Its generally regarded in the world of modern physics that if you get an inifite answer to an equation (especially in quantum physics) you have gone wrong somewhere in your calculations. At the moment the furthest we can speculate is that 11 demensions exist (including the time dimension). This is according to string theory and is very far away from being an experimentally proven fact.


I wasn't talking about dimensions. I was talking about universes. The implication of M Theory is that there are potentially infinite universes in the 11th dimension.


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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5774618 -

String theory is some hard stuff to understand. I once sat in on this grad level physics string theory class just because I was bored one day, and could understand very little of it. I know a decent amount of math, basically through undergrad quantum, but this was some strange stuff. Id be curious to learn more about it, but Im not a physics major so I guess thats going to be difficult.

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Re: M Theory and the multiverse [Re: Silversoul]
    #5775746 -

Wow, you mean that M-Theory, is based upon a theory that is no-where near close to experimental varification? Until if by some freak of nature an astronomer hits the probability jackpot and actually see's a macroscopic string flying around out there in space somewhere, this M-Theory is just pure speculation. :lol:

Edited by Sinbad (06/21/06 10:00 AM)

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