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The illusions of language and culture *DELETED*
    #5772872 -

Post deleted by Lion

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by Lion (06/20/06 04:03 PM)

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Lion] * 1
    #5773143 -

Words convey love, joy, fear anguish, turmoil, etc. in only the most one-dimensional way.

I agree that spoken language is limited. But, it's limited only in relation to an ideal. I'd say that the trick is not to lament over limitations, but rather to work creatively within the confines you're given and to do as the alchemists do: change the stone into gold.

The 'cultures' we live in -- 'American' culture, 'European', 'emo', 'black', etc. -- dictate the parameters by which we interact with one another. It is looked down upon when American men cry, or when women don't shave their legs.

Only if you let yourself be limited to some narrow-minded conceptualization. In reality, no concept or idea or intellectualization can capture our true essence. Don Juan, in Castaneda's books made some very relevent suggestions in this regard. He spoke of keeping no routines and having no personal history. Habits and concepts of who you are will only limit your true expression. One must strive to live each moment as the last battle one will ever have on earth: be completely present and spontaneous, not tied down from the past.

And there will never be peace and understanding in the world while language and culture are valued.

I disagree. I think it is possible. It's not language and culture themselves that are causing issues, but rather the people who think that they use and follow them. Language and culture are both extremely beautiful things. They are works of art, worthy of deep respect and appreciation. However, most people take them for granted and eventually develop a better-than-thou attitude, becoming bigots. And perhaps others are to some degree insecure, and so latch on to a particular culture or tradition and worship it to the exclusion of everything else, becoming very close-minded and ethnocentric.

But when people are free to be themselves, without the psychological limitations of clinging to a certain culture or way of life, then the true beauty of language and culture show themselves right away.

Let's start breaking the barriers.

:sun:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5773271 -

Don Juan, in Castaneda's books made some very relevent suggestions in this regard. He spoke of keeping no routines and having no personal history. Habits and concepts of who you are will only limit your true expression. One must strive to live each moment as the last battle one will ever have on earth: be completely present and spontaneous, not tied down from the past.

Don Juan, it seems to me, is striving to overcome culture. What is culture if not routine/habit/self-limiting concepts stretched out over generations? Being "completely present and spontaneous" is the exact opposite of following the dicta of culture. It is, as I said, only possible to engange in True Expression when culture is given no weight whatsoever.

I disagree. I think it is possible. It's not language and culture themselves that are causing issues, but rather the people who think that they use and follow them. Language and culture are both extremely beautiful things. They are works of art, worthy of deep respect and appreciation. However, most people take them for granted and eventually develop a better-than-thou attitude, becoming bigots. And perhaps others are to some degree insecure, and so latch on to a particular culture or tradition and worship it to the exclusion of everything else, becoming very close-minded and ethnocentric.

My belief is that culture is a dusty mirror held up to the Human Spirit. Each culture reflects what its founders and followers believe to be the true or ideal state of being human. Thus each culture is premised on its own inherent "rightness". While each culture may have grains of truth in its soil, its fruits are self-limiting. Look at culture as a window onto the forest that is Human Existence. Each culture is its own window; each culture sees different trees. But where the window should continue, revealing the forest in its entirety, there is suddenly a wall that blocks the viewer's sight of the rest of the forest.

I'll rephrase what I said: language and culture can have value, but they are inherently divisive. I think we can all agree that people who identify with different linguistic and cultural heritages do not have a great history of unconditionally accepting one another. What I am proposing is creating a universal human culture, wherein expression is not limited by the inability of an Englishman to understand the German condition, or by the inability of a Southern Baptist to recognize the spiritual legitimacy of the DMT experience, etc.

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Lion]
    #5773365 -

Alright, I was operating on a faulty definition of culture, so yes you are right. Culture, thus defined, is indeed something that ought to be overcome. Culture is anti-individualistic, and that is not something worthy of praise, I revise my prior assertion.

I think we can all agree that people who identify with different linguistic and cultural heritages do not have a great history of unconditionally accepting one another.

Yes, I agree, but it is not necessarily the case that what has been will continue to be. Things do change. Furthermore, it seems as though you are being slightly intolerant to the intolerance of others. This is not the way to help others become tolerant. The best thing I think that can be done is to be tolerant of others' intolerance, and help them along in the right direction using skillful means when the time is right. I don't mean being completely passive, on the contrary, be compassionate and understanding. I would be very surprised to learn of anyone on the entire planet in all of history that has never once exhibited the slightest bit of intolerance. It's something that I think everyone experiences, but everyone matures at different rates.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Lion]
    #5773374 -

if you had no language, would you still think?

i find myself thinking in english. A limited language based on our limited brains. If I was born Tarzan, raised by the apes, would I still feel love?

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: dblaney]
    #5773802 -

Quote:
Yes, I agree, but it is not necessarily the case that what has been will continue to be. Things do change. Furthermore, it seems as though you are being slightly intolerant to the intolerance of others. This is not the way to help others become tolerant. The best thing I think that can be done is to be tolerant of others' intolerance, and help them along in the right direction using skillful means when the time is right. I don't mean being completely passive, on the contrary, be compassionate and understanding. I would be very surprised to learn of anyone on the entire planet in all of history that has never once exhibited the slightest bit of intolerance. It's something that I think everyone experiences, but everyone matures at different rates.

I don't think I'm intolerant so much as impatient with others' intolerance.  I tolerate others' (and my own) neuroses; I simply wish that people would take a more active role in overcoming them.  I'm speaking out of love for the human race, nothing more or less. :heart: :sun:

Schwamm, I tend to think in English too, but try not to.  Meditating, using psychedelics, drumming, dancing -- all these are ways to express yourself and to 'think' in a dynamic manner without words or language.  I also feel that there is tremendous potential for telepathy in the human race.  :thumbup:  If you were Tarzan, I think you would feel an animal love for your primate tribe; either that, or you'd just lust constantly after bananas.  :tongue:

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Lion]
    #5773889 -

I dream in german, soo i've been told...

"""
I feel like it's time for humans as a whole to start seriously talking about what language and culture are."""

mythology...

did you know that when you juice a banana no liquid comes out?

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Schwammel]
    #5773970 -

there's just too many of us...
i've heared is somewhere that the human mind is kinda limited to a certine amount of social interaction (they gave examples like the number of players in a football team or supream court judges...) but we've exceeded that amout...

not too long ago humans lived all their life around the same other humans (and indeed humans from the same general colture) and once you live long enough with someone, some things don't need to be said... there's already the shared context to a conversation allowing for faster\better\closer communication :shrug:

it's an interesting issue...
maybe in a couple hundred years when all the world will be wired on the same grid a singular language will form? maybe once we all get a bable fish stuck in our ear :smirk:


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
      Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
      :sun: Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum :sun:


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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Simisu]
    #5774022 -

i don't know... but hebrew cannabis???

"""Genesis 11

11 1And the whole earth was of one language and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Come, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4And they said, Come, let us build us a city, and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do: and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do. 7Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8So Jehovah scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off building the city. 9Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because Jehovah did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Jehovah scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."""

so they had to stop building the city...

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men,
Couldn't put Humpty back together again.


Edited by Schwammel (06/20/06 08:51 PM)

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Schwammel]
    #5774138 -

and the point IS?


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
      Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
      :sun: Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum :sun:


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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Simisu]
    #5774253 -

well if I didn't make the point I guess I forgot.

i'll try again...

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men,
Couldn't put Humpty back together again.


the point is lost in translation from the

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Simisu]
    #5775427 -

simisu said:
....there's already the shared context to a conversation allowing for faster\better\closer communication ....


language problems relate to internal dialogue
and mechanical chatter which leads to ignoring important messages.

language value is manifold - particularly in connecting with others,
and in the thrill of making noises (and these marks too) that can carry ideas (joy of art).

private thoughts, that are stuck in linguistical jacketing become limited by that jacketting; and this is the only area of concern.

you need to have some personal time without words to round out your own personal enlightenment. I repeat some time, and you need some time alone too (the quiet and the boundless).

to go against the grain here, words and people are precious.

the galling problems are in clinging and entanglements, like too much food, or too much wine. A good measure of these things (words, people) is very good indeed.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5776933 -

another point of clarification and debate:

I do not think that language has always been valueless. If anything, I think language is what has given us the remarkable ability to reflect on the nature of existence and self.

I wonder, though, where language came from. I have the intense suspicion that it was given to us. McKenna believes humans developed language through the use of psilocybin mushrooms; perhaps this could explain the intense sensation of 'linguistic flux' that accompanies all my forays into the psychedelic world.

I smoked salvia 2 nights ago before going to bed and began to say words out loud. As I chanted the words, strange images began to appear before my closed eyes. I realized after a while that what I was seeing were abstract visualizations of the connotations I had built around the word-sound. The images accompanying certain words were distinctly more negative than others. The image created by chanting my full formal name, for example, had much more negative connotative energy than chanting the name that my friends, family and close acquaintances call me -- perhaps because I associate it with things like bad report cards, alcohol and marijuana citations, MVA documents, etc.

Words have always carried for me different energies -- I can feel abstract color schemata around different words and phrases. My last salvia trip brought out more clearly my mental visualizations of these abstractions. It really got me wondering about how language came to exist. I intuit strongly that it was given to us as a catalyst -- without language it would have been hard for us to advance in the field of mathematics, thus in logic, science, technological advancement, etc., as well as in the realm of social interaction.

The basic lesson that I feel is being actively taught to me now by some higher consciousness is that language has served its purpose. In this day and age, when technology has made the world exponentially smaller and given humans unprecedented access to each other's perspectives, language is more constraining than liberating. The next step must be to develop our empathic and telepathic senses, to share abstract images and tap into deeper levels of consciousness with the goal of sharing understanding.

There is only so much more that can be said. Words cannot bring a human being to Nirvana; words cannot bind two people in tantric ecstacy; words cannot free us from our own neuroses. There must be a next step.

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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: Lion]
    #18912615 -

What gets me all the time is how these sounds (in other words.. "words") can be translated from different languages (or how these sounds are arranged and put together) to mean the same thing. We have all been taught that each word means something. thats all we know.

I think it was in Food of the Gods where Terence says something along the lines of imagining a world without nouns and adjectives and the like..


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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: DpRwav]
    #18912800 -

We tend to frown on people who resurrect extremely ancient threads.


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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18912990 -

I tend to frown upon people with attitudes as such


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Re: The illusions of language and culture [Re: DpRwav]
    #18913018 -

tough shit


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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