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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Ego... language limit...
    #739351 - 07/11/02 02:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Here's another language barrier... EGO...
Ego really only means your sense of self. The word "ego" is often improperly linked to the concept of egoCENTRISM which is when someone is concerned mainly (in varying degrees) for themselves rather than society. I don't know who is to blame for this connotation and misuse of the word. Maybe we need a new word for this idea of EGO.
To function in this world, an ego is absolutely necessary (don't argue with me on this on... no sense of self = no function). Egocentrism, however, is NOT necessary. Maybe the confusion started with the merging of psychedelia and eastern thought. That would make sense. Eastern thought encourages people to let go of their egoCENTRIC views of the world. Under the influence of a psychedelic, a person really can lose their sense of self or EGO... then afterwards there is this tendency to take a non-egocentric viewpoint like that of eastern thought.

Is this clear?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #739374 - 07/11/02 02:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I knew that.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineChubbSubb
Zen Lunatic

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 612
Loc: Here.
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #739537 - 07/11/02 03:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Very nice post Sclorch....i agree


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineCougheeman
enthusiast
Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 214
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Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #739755 - 07/11/02 05:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Here is some eastern thought about ego to build upon this subject.

"In the same way that we have separated ourselves from the world, creating the "I" as a separate entity, we have also divided our experience. We have divided thinking into the thought and the thinker. We have broken action into the act and the actor. We have fragmented perception into the perceiver and the object of perception. And in this process we have created the chooser and the choice. This thinker; this actor, this perceiver, this chooser is the ego.

But the thinker cannot be spearated from the thought. Without one, the other cannot exist. The process of thinking is the only reality. The thinker is nothing more than thought dividing itself. Thought creates the thinker and attributes the qualties of choice, control and will to it. We have all experieneced this reality but seldom look into it. Whenever we are caught up in a moment of profound beauty or danger, what happens? We momentarily forget ourseleves. The individual "I" disappears and we are only acting, perceiving, being. There is no thinker or actor in these moments; no chooser exists. There is no center from which we experience. Only the experience itself exists. These moments are brief and infrequent, and we seldom take note of them or ponder their profound implications. Nevertheless, we experience them. And after the danger has passed or we have filed away the beauty and hoped for more of it, the ego resurfaces and our thought process resumes."


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Aum Namah Sivaya


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Offlineerectronik
newbie

Registered: 03/13/02
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Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Cougheeman]
    #740532 - 07/12/02 12:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It is also related to the existentialist view that we should not view people or ourselves by what they could do, but what they have done, and will do. A man is his actions, not his dreams* or his regrets. SO, he can always change, with action.


*I had trouble here, since I long defined myself partially by my aspirations, but I've decided that actively dreaming can be as productive as actively acting.


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"Hallucinogens can be like talking to a really talented salesman: beware of what you can sell yourself." - J.L.C.


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #740540 - 07/12/02 12:35 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, the word "ego" is thrown around entirely too often.
So... Which would be easier: Educating people of the correct meaning of the word, or creating a new word and introducing it to humanity?

Good luck either way.

I must sleep...


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
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Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #740572 - 07/12/02 01:37 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

To function in this world, an ego is absolutely necessary (don't argue with me on this on... no sense of self = no function).

Hey, let's argue on this one. What you are saying is that you need a sense of self in order to function. Since I would argue that a tree, a rock, a bird, a hydrogen molecule and a peanut butter sandwich all perform their function very well, it follows that all of them - or, for that matter, every object in the universe you could describe - have a sense of self. That somehow takes the meaning out of the word, doesn't it?

Ego really only means your sense of self.

As used in the context of eastern religions, Ego means the illusion of self. That is, the definition that you came up for yourself, and which, since then, you have spent your time projecting outwards, trying to convince people that you are really what you pretend to be. It's called personality and usually has (unsurprisingly) a positive connotation in the west. But having a strong personality means nothing else than that you are good at faking something. I prefer being noncontinuous. I like to contradict myself.

The word "ego" is often improperly linked to the concept of egoCENTRISM which is when someone is concerned mainly (in varying degrees) for themselves rather than society.

As long as you still cherish a concept of self, you cannot be selfless. On the other hand, you can care only for yourself, yet not be egocentric in the sense you mean it - this is when you realize that caring for society and caring for yourself is the same damn thing.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Nomad]
    #741513 - 07/12/02 12:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sclorch: To function in this world, an ego is absolutely necessary (don't argue with me on this on... no sense of self = no function).
Nomad: Hey, let's argue on this one. What you are saying is that you need a sense of self in order to function. Since I would argue that a tree, a rock, a bird, a hydrogen molecule and a peanut butter sandwich all perform their function very well, it follows that all of them - or, for that matter, every object in the universe you could describe - have a sense of self. That somehow takes the meaning out of the word, doesn't it?

Hey kids, see what happens when you miss one thing in your post because you thought everyone would understand what you meant anyways? I?m referring to the ?no function?? I had hoped that my statement would have connoted ?intentionality? and ?conscious perception? and I?m probably still leaving something out. Sure, we?ll still ?function? as in take up space somewhere drooling on the floor and staring into a bright light because our consciousness is not aware of itself as an actual entity (I wonder what it would be like though). But shitting yourself because you don?t even know you?re you is what I would call nonfunctioning.


Ego really only means your sense of self.
As used in the context of eastern religions, Ego means the illusion of self.

Right. We?re being fooled into this sense of self? I wasn?t arguing whether or not we?re being fooled. I don?t care about that? I?m only concerned with our inability to function in lieu of a sense of self.

That is, the definition that you came up for yourself, and which, since then, you have spent your time projecting outwards, trying to convince people that you are really what you pretend to be. It's called personality and usually has (unsurprisingly) a positive connotation in the west. But having a strong personality means nothing else than that you are good at faking something.

Maybe your ?false? sense of self (a.k.a. ego) has just tricked you into thinking that having a personality only means that you?re lying to your?self?. Thinking of oneself as an insignificant being that is only lying to itself about its existence pairs up nicely with the Christian concept of ?original sin?. Why are there so many leaders (spiritual and otherwise) in eastern culture if having a strong personality is such a terrible thing. Buddha was such a figure. Did you ever think that the idea of thinking of yourself as an illusion was just a thought experiment designed to help a person to think for themselves? This could mean that it was designed to help a person develop their ?self?. Maybe you won?t like this idea.

I prefer being noncontinuous. I like to contradict myself.

And you have some sort of noncontinuous personal calculus that you?ve created so as to keep from being continuous? Just make sure you never cross the line and show some continuity? wait? that would make you a hypocrite thus falling in line with your ideal manner of behavior/thinking. Okay, yeah?.


The word "ego" is often improperly linked to the concept of egoCENTRISM which is when someone is concerned mainly (in varying degrees) for themselves rather than society.
As long as you still cherish a concept of self, you cannot be selfless. On the other hand, you can care only for yourself, yet not be egocentric in the sense you mean it - this is when you realize that caring for society and caring for yourself is the same damn thing.

Hmm?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #741749 - 07/12/02 03:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hey kids, see what happens when you miss one thing in your post because you thought everyone would understand what you meant anyways? I?m referring to the ?no function?? I had hoped that my statement would have connoted ?intentionality? and ?conscious perception? and I?m probably still leaving something out. Sure, we?ll still ?function? as in take up space somewhere drooling on the floor and staring into a bright light because our consciousness is not aware of itself as an actual entity (I wonder what it would be like though). But shitting yourself because you don?t even know you?re you is what I would call nonfunctioning.

You did say that ?to function in this world? a sense of self is necessary. If by that you mean to function in our society as it is, I agree. But if you mean that it is necessary to survive in general (and avoid drooling on the floor and shitting yourself), I see no reason to think this. Scientists generally agree that birds, lizards, rats and other such animals have no sense of self (the statement ?I am? never enters their experience). In spite of this, they are able to learn, via classical and operant conditioning and modeling. Humans also learn via these methods and there is no reason to believe that these learning mechanisms would not function in the absence of a self.

Additionally, cognitive psychology recognizes implicit perception and learning, learning and acting while not aware of what is going on. This learning mechanism may still function in the absence of a self. This is really close to what Alan Watts' interpretation of Taoism pushes for- acting with out awareness of the action (and the self doing the acting), just faithfully acting.

Whether you are talking about a human who hypothetically never developed a sense of self or a human who lost the sense of self after having one is another interesting question.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: buttonion]
    #741853 - 07/12/02 03:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Good points all around.

A toast, to this forum.

Now, a question: How does one go about introducing a new word? I remember reading a little something about this, but I don't remember what, or where, or even when. I would think there are a couple of ways to go about it; either start using the word and hope it catches, or go straight to the dictionary folks with a petition or commity...

I've never witnessed the birth of a word, though I've witnessed much debate of the necessity of new ones. I want to see this dream come true for someone.
I suppose one might do well to frequent literary or scientific circles for this type of thing...


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OfflineCougheeman
enthusiast
Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Ulysees]
    #742005 - 07/12/02 04:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i thought i witnessed a birth of a word... i can still remember back in first grade only thing i can remember back then. Our teacher she told us about a new word, called "knew" i was like wow a new word.

lol thuoght i would share, cause that just poped into my mind. :P


--------------------
Aum Namah Sivaya


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Ulysees]
    #742948 - 07/13/02 12:02 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I've invented numerous words... including my pseudonym, Sclorch.

The most recent one...
I was partially responsible for founding IGNORTION- the act of ignoring.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #742993 - 07/13/02 12:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Spiritual posters, to Oxford!

Ignortion is a good one. I don't see how we've gotten along without it.


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Ulysees]
    #743002 - 07/13/02 01:26 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

at least send them someplace useful.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #743040 - 07/13/02 03:04 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I had hoped that my statement would have connoted ?intentionality? and ?conscious perception? and I?m probably still leaving something out.

Very well, then. My goal is to abolish intentionality and conscious perception. So what? Where's the problem with that?

As to "still leaving something out", I don't have a fucking clue what you mean. Sounds a bit metaphysical for me, this whole concept of a "self" which humans have, but animals don't. Sort of like a soul, you know?

Sure, we?ll still ?function? as in take up space somewhere drooling on the floor and staring into a bright light

Jumping to conclusions, are we?

Maybe your ?false? sense of self (a.k.a. ego) has just tricked you into thinking that having a personality only means that you?re lying to your?self?.

Yes. Maybe. But there's nothing wrong about using the ego as a vehicle to get to egolessness. There's actually no other way to do this. That's what it makes it so hard.

Thinking of oneself as an insignificant being that is only lying to itself about its existence pairs up nicely with the Christian concept of ?original sin?.

"Original sin" could be a metaphor which refers to exactly this. I've never thought about it that way, but it makes sense.

Why are there so many leaders (spiritual and otherwise) in eastern culture if having a strong personality is such a terrible thing. Buddha was such a figure.

The "leader" of a zen monastery usually performs the lowest kind of manual work. How often do you see a western leader-type (managers, politicians, school teachers etc...) clean the toilet? If we refer to the typical western authority as "having a strong personality", then we obviously need a different description for the Buddha.

Did you ever think that the idea of thinking of yourself as an illusion was just a thought experiment designed to help a person to think for themselves? This could mean that it was designed to help a person develop their ?self?. Maybe you won?t like this idea.

No, actually, I do. Great idea. But how does the thought experiment of thinking yourself as an illusion help a person develop their self?

And you have some sort of noncontinuous personal calculus that you?ve created so as to keep from being continuous?

Yes. What's wrong about that?


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Anonymous

Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #743281 - 07/13/02 08:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

To function in this world, an ego is absolutely necessary (don't argue with me on this on... no sense of self = no function).




Children aren't supposed to develop a sense of self until sometime around the age of 2, i think. Lacan talks about the mirror stage, where the brain comes to know itself as a self. that is, as an object. i think the theory goes that the child then represents hir self as an object using this external image.

i don't think animals have ego's? just instinct? and they function rather well. i'd venture to say that bacteria and paramecium definintely have no sense of self, ego, or Self and they function as well.


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OfflineCougheeman
enthusiast
Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 214
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: ]
    #743286 - 07/13/02 09:02 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

nice point... iam saving your post if you don't mind


--------------------
Aum Namah Sivaya


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Cougheeman]
    #743542 - 07/13/02 12:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Vaporbrains: Children aren't supposed to develop a sense of self until sometime around the age of 2, i think. Lacan talks about the mirror stage, where the brain comes to know itself as a self. that is, as an object. i think the theory goes that the child then represents hir self as an object using this external image

Remember this?
?I had hoped that my statement would have connoted ?intentionality??


Nomad: As to "still leaving something out", I don't have a fucking clue what you mean. Sounds a bit metaphysical for me, this whole concept of a "self" which humans have, but animals don't. Sort of like a soul, you know?

You?ve got me all wrong? another example of me ?still leaving something out?. All I meant is that I might not be explaining/communicating my thoughts clearly enough for you to understand.


Sclorch: Sure, we?ll still ?function? as in take up space somewhere drooling on the floor and staring into a bright light
Nomad: Jumping to conclusions, are we?

Not really? I was merely recalling flashes of one very intense mushroom trip I had down in the Florida Keys. The world disappeared and I felt/saw (there?s really no word for it) myself as a colorless, amorphous blob of self as "I" viewed a neon-green, fractal-like structure composed of cosms and cosms of toruses (sp?). During the experience this vision of sorts would sort of fade away into a view of the inside of a camper? a toilet with vomit in it?. a mattress?


But how does the thought experiment of thinking yourself as an illusion help a person develop their self?

I didn?t invent the exercise? so I really can?t tell you HOW it?s SUPPOSED to work.


Sclorch: And you have some sort of noncontinuous personal calculus that you?ve created so as to keep from being continuous?
Nomad: Yes. What's wrong about that?

Well, unless you?re now being facetious?
(from above) ?Just make sure you never cross the line and show some continuity? wait? that would make you a hypocrite thus falling in line with your ideal manner of behavior/thinking.?
Do you see the problem here?
It is impossible to take noncontinuity to an extreme. Therefore, you?ll never reach an ideal level of noncontinuity. Initially, I have no problem with this (perfection of an ideal sucks, even if it were possible). I sort of slid that ?calculus? bit in there just to see what you would say. However, your answer is ambiguous enough to still keep me wondering?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Sclorch]
    #743638 - 07/13/02 01:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

How does Schlorch, a 3 mushroom guy, write a 5 mushroom thread? Can we exceed our own limitations? Can we shatter mushroom rating barriers at will? More importantly, how is this related to what anyone else here said?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinellib
journeyman
Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 129
Loc: florida
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Ego... language limit... [Re: Ulysees]
    #743909 - 07/13/02 04:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I personally like Ayn Rands differentiation of between the egoist and egotist, th egotist being the selfcentered definition and the egoist, having sense of self as a thinking knowledge capable entity. Maybe we should differentiate these two words in our discussion. I dont think we are speaking of an egotist's death but death or the egoist. The shroom experience allows one to see a different sense of self. In an earlier post i recommend that people read the Dancing Wu Li Masters. Speaks of quantum mechnaics and its similaririties to eastern philosophy. Personally, during a shroom experience, i feel i am able to, with ego death, experience a sense of self, which may initially seem contradictory, but a sense of self from a qunatum mechanics perspective. I.e, the notion of the dual concept of wave/particle theory of light can better be apreciated. The concept that the solid things that we see in our world, do become, "realtively" solid when shrooming.
It is an amazing similarity


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