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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: U.S. Uses Chemical Weapons In Iraq [Re: Redstorm]
    #5131366 -

I am getting quite irritated, b/c I am trying to explain something to you, but you will have no part of it

Don't get irritated. Just make your point and I'll make mine. Ok?

but if it is being used on people, it is a incendiary weapon.

So you keep saying. Meanwhile even Pentagon intelligence doesn't agree with you.


IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS
CHEMICAL
WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE
IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS. KURDISH RESISTANCE IS LOSING ITS
STRUGGLE AGAINST SADDAM HUSSEIN'S FORCES. KURDISH REBELS AND
REFUGEES' PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS AND PERCEPTIONS ARE PROVIDED.

PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE
PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE
POPULACE IN ERBIL THE WP CHEMICAL WAS DELIVERED BY
ARTILLERY ROUNDS AND HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_22431050_91r.html

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Re: U.S. Uses Chemical Weapons In Iraq [Re: Alex213]
    #5131391 -

Of course my shithole gov't is going to say it is a chemical weapon if it was being used by Saddam. If they used it, of course, it would be something quite different.

I don't really want to argue about it anymore. It's all a matter of semantics anyways, since WP is prohibited as a weapon if it is a chemical weapon or an incendiary weapon. Either way, it's bad shit and illegal to use on people.

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Re: U.S. Uses Chemical Weapons In Iraq [Re: Alex213]
    #5131415 -

i'll say it again -

But America is a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention, which it ratified in 1997, and that agreement forbids the use of any substance to kill or harm either soldiers or civilians if it is being used mostly for its toxicity.

it's not being used for its toxicity. it is not a chemical weapon any more than other incendiaries like napalm, magnesium, and thermite (all of which are also toxic, but not used for their toxicity).

now, if it's being used in attacks targeting civilians, we've got a problem, but it's no different a problem than if the attacks employed thermite or magnesium.


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Re: U.S. Uses Chemical Weapons In Iraq [Re: Alex213]
    #5132278 -

Quote:
Presumably you have just done one of your infamous 2 minute google searches and come up with this utterly irrelevant peice of "information"?


Actually, no. It's because I remember the chemistry I learned in school. White phosphorus is pyrophoric.

And the information is far from irrelevant, it is crucial to the discussion. White phosphorus ignites instantly upon contact with the atmosphere. It therefore cannot be dusted or sprayed or dripped onto someone's skin on a battlefield as phosphorus.

Quote:
Source?


Ask any chemist.

And while WP is technically classified as an incendiary agent, it is not a particularly good one. It is by far the best smoke producing agent, but as an incendiary it is inferior to thermite or even magnesium.



Phred


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Re: U.S. Uses Chemical Weapons In Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #5138621 -

a report by Congressman John Conyers stated that in the U.S. Battle Book it says 't is against the Law of Land Warfare to employ WP against personnel targets,' (the following being conyers' words)and which would be in contravention of the Geneva and Hague Conventions and the War Crimes Act."

its use as a weapon would violate US and International laws.

U.S. battle book published by U.S. command and general staff college at fort leavenworth states the illegality of the use of WP against persons here http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/st100-3/c5/5sect3.htm

chemical weapons are against the chemical weapons convention regardless of whether or not they are used against civilians.

arguments that WP burns people rather than poisoning them and is therefore only covered by laws regarding incindiaries to which the US is not signatory are refuted by the above. There is also the fact of hypocrisy in condemning other nations for weapons/actions outlawed in documents to which they are not signatory through arguments of a global precedent/standard. Some also provide evidence of the dual nature of WP. it is both incindiary and a toxic chemical. the gas it produces acts like an acid. i believe i have provided documentation before of the details of the chemical reactions involved in WP implementation. part of it is phosphoric acid among other chemicals. this acts on the eyes, lungs, et cetera. according to a member of a group involved in the study/politics of chemical weapons the use of WP with the intention of using its toxic/caustic properties as part of the weapon would violate chemical weapons statutes. Its use as a weapon in general by a military that fully knows of these properties constitutes an intentional use of WP as a weapon, with knowledge of its incindiary and toxic properties. That makes it a violation of chem weapons laws. it is a chem weapon because it, in part, uses its toxic/caustic properties as part of the weapon. it is also unable to be precise or contained in its utilization.

the US defense department in april of 91 titled "possible use of phosporus chemical" says that saddam's may have "used white phosphorous (WP) chemical weapons against Kurdish rebels and the populace in Erbil ... and Dohuk provinces, Iraq. The WP chemical was delivered by artillery rounds and helicopter gunships. ... These reports of possible WP chemical weapon attacks spread quickly ... hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled from these two areas."

it would appear that the US classified it as a chem weapon when saddam used it in a way staggeringly similar to its use in fallujah. they obviously knew of its dual nature upon using it themselves recently. this is according to a declassified defense dept document available here http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_22431050_91r.html

witness/soldier/victim accounts confirm its use as a weapon rather than for illumination. official administartion positions were that it was used only for illumination, but were then changed to state that it was used as a weapon but that its use was not illegal (mostly due to arguments that it is solely an incindiary, which is false.)


the majority of this post has been paraphrased from this article http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=9402



i believe witness/soldier accounts as well as those of a plethora of real chemists and actual documentation on the chemical and its reactions conflict GREATLY with many of your arguments. a simple google search or wikipedia lookup will show that a great deal of the arguments provided in this thread have been rather ignorant, on all sides of the debates.

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Re: U.S. Uses Chemical Weapons In Iraq [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #5139751 -

There were WMD in Iraq. See
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200410%5CNAT20041011a.html

There are links to English translations in pdf format on each document page.


--------------------
Bush bashers beware http://graypantherssf.igc.org/guantanamo.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46501


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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