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Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout
    #4948344 -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5422997,00.html

Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout

Friday November 18, 2005 1:16 AM


AP Photo WX111

By LIZ SIDOTI

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - One of Congress' most hawkish and influential Democrats called Thursday for an immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, sparking bitter and personal salvos from both sides in a growing Capitol Hill uproar over President Bush's war policies.

``It's time to bring them home,'' said Rep. John Murtha, a decorated Korean War and Vietnam combat veteran, choking back tears during remarks to reporters. ``Our military has accomplished its mission and done its duty.''

The comments by the Pennsylvania lawmaker, who has spent three decades in the House, hold particular weight because he is close to many military commanders and has enormous credibility with his colleagues on defense issues. He voted for the war in 2002, and remains the top Democrat on the House Appropriations defense subcommittee.

``Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency. They are united against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence,'' he said. ``The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion.''

In a biting response, Republicans criticized Murtha's position as one of abandonment and surrender and accused Democrats of playing politics with the war and recklessly pushing a ``cut and run'' strategy.

``They want us to retreat. They want us to wave the white flag of surrender to the terrorists of the world,'' said House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill.

``It would be an absolute mistake and a real insult to the lives that have been lost,'' said Rep. David Dreier, R-Calif.

Underscoring the rising emotions of the war debate, Murtha uncharacteristically responded to Vice President Dick Cheney's comments this week that Democrats were spouting ``one of the most dishonest and reprehensible charges'' about the Bush administration's use of intelligence before the war.

``I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there,'' Murtha said. ``I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done.''

Referring to Bush, Murtha added, ``I resent the fact, on Veterans Day, he criticized Democrats for criticizing them.''

The White House fired back from Busan, South Korea, where Bush was meeting with Asian leaders.

``Congressman Murtha is a respected veteran and politician who has a record of supporting a strong America,'' said White House press secretary Scott McClellan. ``So it is baffling that he is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic Party.''

``The eve of an historic democratic election in Iraq is not the time to surrender to the terrorists,'' McClellan said. ``After seeing his statement, we remain baffled - nowhere does he explain how retreating from Iraq makes America safer.''

Murtha once worked closely with the vice president when Cheney was defense secretary. During Vietnam, Bush served stateside in the National Guard while Cheney's five deferments kept him out of the service entirely.

Just two days earlier, the GOP-controlled Senate defeated a Democratic push for Bush to lay out a timetable for withdrawal. Spotlighting mushrooming questions from both parties about the war, though, the chamber then approved a statement that 2006 should be a significant year in which conditions are created for the phased withdrawal of U.S. forces.

Murtha estimated that all U.S. troops could be pulled out within six months. He introduced a resolution Thursday that would force the president to call back the military, but it was unclear when, or if, either GOP-run chamber of Congress would vote on it.

On the Senate floor Thursday, Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., called on President Bush and the White House to stop what he called an orchestrated attack campaign.

``It's a weak, spineless display of politics at a time of war,'' said Reid, who spoke while Bush was in Asia.

The rhetorical dueling came in a week in which Bush and other top administration officials lashed out at war critics, saying they advocate a strategy that will only embolden the insurgency.

Some Senate Democrats have already laid out plans for bringing home U.S. troops. Other House Democrats have called for the military to pull out, but none has Murtha's clout on military issues.

With a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, Murtha retired from the Marine Corps reserves as a colonel in 1990 after 37 years as a Marine, only a few years longer than he's been in Congress. Elected in 1974, Murtha has become known as an authority on national security whose advice was sought out by Republican and Democratic administrations alike.

Murtha's shift from an early war backer to a critic advocating withdrawal reflects plummeting public support for a war that has cost more than $200 billion and led to the deaths of more than 2,000 U.S. troops.

Known as a friend and champion of officers at the Pentagon and in the war zone, it is widely believed in Congress that Murtha often speaks for those in uniform and could be echoing what U.S. commanders in the field and in the Pentagon are saying privately about the conflict.

Murtha, who normally shuns the spotlight, said he spoke out because he has grown increasingly troubled by the war and has a constitutional and moral obligation to speak for the troops.

But Republicans said Murtha does not represent the views of U.S. troops or military leaders.

``This falloff of support among Democratic ranks is not shared by the war-fighting forces. It's not shared by our troops,'' said Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.

Several times a year, Murtha travels to Iraq to assess the war on the ground, and sometimes he just calls up generals to get firsthand accounts.

His voice cracked and tears filled his eyes as he related stories of one of his visits to wounded soldiers at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington.

One man, he said, was blinded and lost both his hands but had been denied a Purple Heart because friendly fire caused his injuries.

``I met with the commandant. I said, 'If you don't give him a Purple Heart, I'll give him one of mine.' And they gave him a Purple Heart,'' said Murtha, who has two.

:peace:
cateyes

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4948962 -

I understand his point but he is supporting a time-line pullout of six monts which cannot work. Giving the insurgence a deadline that they have to wait it out goes against the very reason he voted them there in the first place. At least my thoughts.

WB


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Edited by WhiteBunny (11/18/05 02:35 PM)

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4950036 -

:thumbup:

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #4950695 -

WhiteBunny said:
I understand his point but he is not supporting a time-line pullout of six monts which cannot work.  Giving the insurgence a deadline that they have to wait it out goes against the very reason he voted them there in the first place.  At least my thoughts.

WB



no i agree with you... i believe it is wishful thinking too. we are in a terrible situation.

i'll also go out on a limb and say that a withdrawal will lead to a resurgency within iraq that will require immediate intervention. we will be forced to return... the draft will be implemented... stabile energy is a matter of national security.

i always had this feeling that iraq was nothing more then the establishment of a beachhead in that region in preperation for a greater conflict. after reading george friedman's book america's secret war: inside the hidden worldwide struggle between america and it's enemies, i'm sure of it. the sad part of all of this is that the same group of men pulling the strings behind the scenes of this administration are responsible for some of the poor policy decisions that place us in the position we find ourselves today. this is far from over...

:peace:
cateyes

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4950789 -

A good way to come up with a deadline for exiting Iraq, is to eliminate the "insurgents" ....i.e. make Iraqs fucking borders secure!!!! It is very simple:

1. Train the Iraqi military how to mount .50 cal machine gun nests appositely 300 yards from their border

2. Teach them left and right lateral limits of fire.

3. Instruct them how to fire at anybody attempting to cross into their country.

Syrians and Iranians might think twice about coming over. This process will have to be done for quite sometime, until Iraq is free of insurgents, before these drastic measures can be reduced.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #4950831 -

thats assuming that discontent iraqis are not forming a significant part of the insurgency, which simply is not the case. its easier to sell a war when you say everyone wants you there except a bunch of outsiders.


--------------------
"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4950868 -

So me the stats that most insurgents are of only of Iraqi origin

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=39412


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (11/18/05 08:47 AM)

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #4950949 -

i don't think the iraqi military will ever be capable of protecting/defending that country. besides, the war they face is against an enemy that walk into wedding receptions with explosives strapped to them. how do you fight against this? this situation could take decades to resolve because iraq is way too important strategically for either side to lose.

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4950964 -

Although different the below is a similar situation..
Look at the infancy of America....look what we had to overcome in order to become sovereign. With the aid of other nations, we were able to defeat a much bigger opponent.

Training and supplying Iraq's military will eventually lead to success, IF , they are trained to eliminate these butt fucking insurgents..


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #4952042 -

it's a different world... unfortunately we can't make these types of comparisons... today 84 iraqis were killed by suicide bombers... the country will never be a free democracy as we know it. the iraqis will be doomed if we leave and slaughtered if we stay...

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #4952047 -

I don't think there will ever be a draft again. Most wars no a days are more technological than pure man power. If it was as eas as killing the insurgents then this war would have been over a long time ago. The problem is knowing who they are. They look like everyother Iraqi citizen. Best thing I think would be to cut off their funding and leaders. Once the head is gone the body cannot function w/o it.

WB


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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4953232 -

Mosque Blasts Spark Murtha?s Call for Muslim Pullout
by Scott Ott

(2005-11-18) ? Rep. John ?Jack? Murtha, D-PA, today responded to news of deadly bomb attacks on two Iraqi mosques by calling for an immediate withdrawal of Muslims from Iraq.

At least 58 worshipers were killed Friday morning in two mosques north of Baghdad when suicide bombers, strapped with explosives, detonated.

Rep. Murtha, the Johnstown Democrat who yesterday called for a rapid pullout of U.S. forces, today said that Shiite Muslims must redeploy as well.

?Shiite Muslims have done all they can in Iraq,? said Rep. Murtha, ?but it is time for a change in direction. It is evident that continued Shiite worship is not in the best interest of the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf Region.?

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2078


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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4953371 -



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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: Phred]
    #4954137 -

I am inebriated right now (yet again...:grin:) so my thoughts may be a tad bit confrontational (I am an angry drunk at times).  When it comes to the topic of the Iraq War, I am bothered by some of the things that you have posted and expressed.  You are probably the most educated and intelligent poster in this forum, but I see arrogance and obstinance in your posts sometimes.

Several things are on my mind after seeing your posts:

1.  Why do you continue to adamantly support military intervention in Iraq, especially considering that the troops that are on the ground are not your countrymen?

2.  Why do you seem to support the views of pampered blue-blood Ivy League politicians who have never served over politicians who have actually served in wartime?

3.  Do you care about the fact that over 2,000 Americans have died and many thousands of Iraqi civilians have died in Iraq?

4.  Do you not understand the trepidations and concerns from Americans about the fate of our soldiers?  You might fall back on your "Saddam disobeyed the resolutions so he had it coming" arguments, but that doesn't change the fact that approximately 2,000 of my fellow Americans have died for a war that was pursued over reasons that have been determined to be shaky or outright false.

5.  Instances like the Iraq war are not just political events; they are personal events.  There are real people who are involved in this.  My encounter with that Iraq war veteran made me realize this.  I hope you do as well.

Edited by RandalFlagg (11/18/05 11:45 PM)

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4954156 -

Iraq War?
There is no war.
There may be some vague hostilities, but those usually don't hurt anybody.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: Gijith]
    #4954166 -

Gijith said:
Iraq War?
There is no war.
There may be some vague hostilities, but those usually don't hurt anybody.



Sarcasm noted.

Thousands of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians count as "somebody" to me.

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4954525 -

RandalFlagg said:
1. Why do you continue to adamantly support military intervention in Iraq, especially considering that the troops that are on the ground are not your countrymen?





hmmmm... it never dawned on me that phred isn't american.

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4954662 -

I also cannot quite understand those who espouse so-called "libertarian" political views (i.e. minimal government) while at the same time support such wars as this massive government endeavor outside of national borders. I can understand a libertarian supporting a war of self-defense, but not a so-called "pre-emptive" war. That seems like government at its most coercive and bloated and intrusive state.

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: cateyes]
    #4954716 -

I guess yet again the Dem's in Washington have been talking out their asses.

What a surprise.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout [Re: Vvellum]
    #4954845 -

It should be noted that from time to time, Phred actually voices his opposition to our presence over there.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2575976#Post2575976


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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