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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945318 -

Name a pending bill which calls for torturing captured terrorists. Then name the politicians that sponsored it.

Then maybe the readers of this thread will buy the argument that "Bush is ACTIVELY LOBBYING for torture". Until then it is simply another unsupported wild-assed claim, like so many of Annapurna1's previously posted unsupported wild-assed claim.

The fact of the matter is that neither Bush nor any member of the Bush administration is "actively lobbying for torture". Instead what is happening is the spectacle of John McCain grandstanding for a redundant amendment he can tack on to some bill to remind US forces they must abide by the guidelines already in place.

You haven't even read the McCain amendment, have you? You've just read what the MSM is saying about it. A link to the amendment has been provided in this forum before but I can't remember which thread it was in. However it is available through a Google search if you care to expend the effort to look it up.



Phred


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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: Phred]
    #4945366 -

the bush administration is actively lobbying for exclusions in the proposed torture policy, i said exclusions from anti-torture bills and you started talking about bills torture bills. I've read it, yes. They want to be allowed to torture. Cheney is one of the most active parts of the admin concerning this. Also there is the veto issue. This has been covered in the forum in multiple threads recently, and is a matter of "public knowledge." Are you going to make me repeat myself again because you are ignorant of major facts of reality here or "lack the capacity of reason to put two and two together in an obvious fashion"?


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945551 -

Quote:
the bush administration is actively lobbying for exclusions in the proposed torture policy, i said exclusions from anti-torture bills and you started talking about bills torture bills.


Re-read what I wrote. I was referring to Annapurna's claim. But come to think of it, you did say "the bush administration is actively lobbying for the ability to torture..." . You did also mention "exclusion", true.

Nowhere have I seen a bill or an amendment introduced which advocates permitting US nationals to "torture". Until you provide proof of such a bill or amendment, I stand by my statements.

It is true there are those in the administration who feel the strictures against "cruel, inhumane, or degrading" methods of interrogation are too vague to be worth much. Is pissing on a Koran within the sight of a Muslim "cruel or degrading"? How about smearing him with fake (or even real) "menstrual blood" or having prostitutes fondle him? Playing loud music all night? Feeding him a sandwich and later telling them it contained pork? Parading his family members in front of him, then taking those members into the room next door from which loud thumps and smacks and blood-curling screams then emanate? Waterboarding?

I submit that at least some of those tactics would fit any reasonable person's definition of "cruel and degrading" and possibly even "inhumane". Yet none of them constitutes torture.

I've asked this of others without ever getting an answer, but maybe you'll oblige me. What harsh interrogation techniques do you feel acceptable to apply to terrorists captured on the battlefield in an attempt to extract information on when and where the next bombing of a school or police station (for example) is scheduled to take place and who is involved in it? Would you allow any of the techniques I described above? All of them? None of them?

If your answer is "none of them", then just which harsh techniques would be okay with you? I provided some specific examples. I would appreciate it if you were to be as specific.





Phred


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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: Phred]
    #4945652 -

did you not get that its not about explicit bills for torture but exclusion from anti-torture bills? you recognized the exclusion argument but then ignored it in saying you wont change your mind unless . . .

I'm against terrorism, and thus torture. Funny that you say if you are not for these harsh teks, what ones are you for. Great choice based on on ignorant militant cultural nurturings. Most of what you said has nothing to do with getting info from people. I have morals and ethics, so i dont think we're going to match up on anything here whatsoever. That meaning, i am against it all and dont find military actions and violence to be effective means of combating terrorism and political violence. Out of priniples and practicality. That said, i dont like being asked to put the media's dick in my mouth, esp. since i dont like seeing it in other peoples'. It is however a great way in further pushing a violent, militaristic, and desensitized US culture further for the ends of violence, domination, and injustice on a globalized scale.


With your played out example of impending doom and one person "we need to torture", consider what that person will say with their balls in a vice, whether they know anything or not.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: afoaf]
    #4945658 -

afoaf said:
is this about hippos crying?


:lol: :lol:


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"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945731 -

Ah. I think I am finally beginning to grasp your unique mode of expression. When you said:

Quote:
the bush administration is actively lobbying for the ability to torture and exclusions from torture bills.


I was supposed to leave out "the ability to torture" bit. My bad.

Quote:
I'm against terrorism, and thus torture.


Yes, I understand you are against torture, even against those who torture. You have made that plain. What about the techniques I specified, though? Pissing on a Koran is defined by you as torture? Smearing fake menstrual blood on someone is torture? Faking the "beating" of a loved one is torture?

Quote:
Funny that you say if you are not for these harsh teks, what ones are you for.


Ummm.... where did I say that? I am in favor of military intelligence personnel using the techniques I mentioned in some situations against some individuals. Fortunately, in most cases such techniques are not required. The captured terrorists typically cough up their henchmen fairly readily. Sing like songbirds, in fact.

Quote:
I have morals and ethics, so i dont think we're going to match up on anything here whatsoever.


Clearly your morals and ethics differ from those of non-pacifists. But hey, it takes all kinds to make a world.

Quote:
That meaning, i am against it all and dont find military actions and violence to be effective means of combating terrorism and political violence.


I understand. There are terrorist sympathizers posting on this board as well as pacifists so none of your arguments surprise me. Pacifists are fortunate to have non-pacifists protecting them, but I no longer expect them to even recognize that fact, much less feel gratitude to their protectors.

Since you are unable or unwilling to specify any harsh interrogation techniques of which you would approve, am I safe in assuming a terrorist captured in the act of setting a bomb in a schoolhouse would have nothing to worry about with you as his interrogator? You'd ask him for information and if he sat mum you'd shrug and say, "All right then. Time for you to unroll your prayer mat and bow to Mecca anyway. Have a nice day" ?

An interesting set of "principles and practicality", I must say.




Phred


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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: Phred]
    #4945793 -

oops, i didnt see the "and". i meant ability to torture BY exclusion from anti-torture intiatives. You shouldnt take out "ability to torture. Must have slept less than i thought last night. If i'm not catching shit like that, my thesis im writing is prob going to look NUTS.

YOU asked ME if i wasnt in favor of these harsh teks, what harsh teks was i for?

not a pacifist, just not an ignorant barbarist. and that goes beyond isolated situations that cannot predicate proper analyses.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4945824 -

Quote:
YOU asked ME if i wasnt in favor of these harsh teks, what harsh teks was i for?


Yes I did, and I am still awaiting your answer. How far may an interrogator go in attempting to extract information which would save lives? Clearly you considered all my examples to be unacceptable ones -- to you they constitute "torture".

If none of my examples suit you, please provide an example of the harshest interrogation technique you would find acceptable.

Quote:
not a pacifist, just not an ignorant barbarist.


Hmmm. what part of --

"That meaning, i am against it all and dont find military actions and violence to be effective means of combating terrorism and political violence," --

differs from a Pacifist's stance? My understanding of Pacifist philosophy was that they were opposed the use of violence against the violent. What is your understanding of Pacifist philosophy?

As a side note, if we are not to be permitted to respond to the violent with violence, how are we to defend ourselves from their violence? Just bend over and take it? Or is the preferred approach appeasement?




Phred


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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: Phred]
    #4945922 -

im saying militarism is not a way to correct a political/social issue and serves to increase terrorism. Im not a pacifist, just a clear thinker in this isolated circumstance. pacifist are unconditional non-violents, which you is not accurate to portray me as.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."

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Re: more hippocrysy(sp) from bush... [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #4946031 -

Quote:
im saying militarism is not a way to correct a political/social issue and serves to increase terrorism.


Actually, you said militarism and violence are both unacceptable to you.

If we are not to use military or violence, then what is your suggested method of dealing with terrorists? How do we protect ourselves (absent the use of a time machine) from those who would gleefully saw off our heads while chanting "Allahu Akbar"?

If you are a clear thinker, surely you must have given some thought to this issue. If we are not to be permitted to respond to the violent with violence, how are we to defend ourselves from their violence? Just bend over and take it? Or is your preferred approach appeasement? Let's hear your thoughts.

While you're at it, I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on this --

"How far may an interrogator go in attempting to extract information which would save lives? Clearly you considered all my examples to be unacceptable ones -- to you they constitute "torture".

If none of my examples suit you, please provide an example of the harshest interrogation technique you would find acceptable."



Phred


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