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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2712005 - 05/21/04 06:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

there's people that claim to have seen a missle
strick the PA flight.

don't know if it's been debunked or not, but there
was talk about that.

check your favorite 9/11 conspiracy site for more
details.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Learyfan]
    #2712889 - 05/21/04 10:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
No, those people have made up their minds. They'll see the movie and not believe that the Bush's have such strong Saudi connections.





I you underestimate that. There are loads of people who know squat about politics who will go to see this. Many did for Bowling for Columbine, and they still don't pay attention to the news, articles, they're opinions are rather basic and uninformed.

Films do a good job in further capturing the youth too...

As for those already politically active/consious? No, people already have their stance, this will just strengthen it regardless of what side they're on.


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OfflineSnobrdr311
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2713980 - 05/22/04 05:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'd like to piss all over Michael Moore's head.. yeah, that'd be fun.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #2714132 - 05/22/04 09:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

(edit: wrong thread)


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Edited by afoaf (05/22/04 09:48 AM)


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Learyfan]
    #2714137 - 05/22/04 09:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

moore is nothing but a capitalist making money off the people who want to believe.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Learyfan]
    #2714766 - 05/22/04 03:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting. In your entire little snippet of a post, I don't see anything relating to Bush even mentioning banning the films. Did that actually happen or do you feel that lying and making things up helps your cause more than the truth?


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Learyfan]
    #2714786 - 05/22/04 03:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


It is said to be so powerful it could tip November's US presidential election against George W Bush. As Moore says: "We were able to get film crews embedded with American troops without them knowing it was Michael Moore. They are totally f***ed."




So now Captain Obseity is manipulating the military to the end of having them "totally fucked". Great guy.
Quote:


Disney has refused to distribute the film in the States, saying its content could upset the presidential elections. Moore says that's precisely why the public should see it.




I don't think thats why Disney said that they didnt' release the film. Is their a source for this, or is it as imaginary as the attempt by Bush to "ban" this film?
Quote:


1, AFTER the 9/11 attacks, why was the only plane to fly out of the US carrying 24 members of Osama bin Laden's family?




If they weren't removed and upset Americans lynched them in the streets, would Captain Obesity be saying that we didn't do enough to protect them? How much ya wanna bet?
Also, the FBI did interview them.
Quote:


2, ARE the media covering up abuse of Iraqi prisoners and the disillusionment of American troops?




I, for one, have heard nothing about this "abuse" of Iraqi prisoners and I watch the news constantly. This one must be true.
Quote:


3, IS Bush deliberately creating a culture of fear to get poor American youth to fight his war?




I'd say that Al Queada is doing a bit more for the "culture of fear" thing than Bush is.
Quote:


4, HOW deep does the connection between the Bush family and bin Laden family actually run?




Irrelevant. The binLaden family has disowned Osama, and due to their religious beliefs, one patriarch of a family could have hundreds of children.
Quote:


The campaigner says: "The bin Laden family have extensive dealings with large companies in the US. They have donated $2m to Bush's alma mater, Harvard. They own property in Texas, Florida and Massachusetts. In short, they have their hands deep in our pants."




Hm, didn't Bush go to Yale? Maybe Bush and the Japanese were conspiring for Pearl Harbor, as they own alot of land in America.
Quote:


5, JUST how sinister was the White House's doctoring of Bush's military record?

MOORE suggests that, far from being simply an exercise in proving that Bush attended to his Texas Air National Guard duties, the White House version also sought to hide evidence that Bush and his associates had close ties with various Saudi oil companies. He also suggests that a former military pal of Bush's, James R Bath, once sold a plane to the bin Laden family.




I'm not sure that the military records contain information about ties with oil companies, and I'm sure that they don't contain information about who's friend sold who planes. Just my .02$.
Quote:


6, DID Bush miss an opportunity to nail bin Laden during secret talks with the Taliban?




I wonder why Captain Obesity isn't bringing up the times when Clinton could have killed him...
Quote:


MOORE claims that while Bush was governor of Texas he built a relationship with the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan. They met in Texas to discuss a project to build a natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and into Pakistan.




Well, if Captain Obesity 'claims' something, it must be true!
Quote:


7, WHY does the Bush family have a "special relationship" with the Saudi royal family?
"MORE than 1.5 million barrels of oil needed in the US daily from the Saudis could vanish on a royal whim, so we begin to see how not only Bush, but all of us, are dependent on the House of Saud," says Moore. "This can't be good for national security."




So then, we all have this "special relationship", right?
Quote:


8, WAS Bush spending too much time on holiday to concentrate on terrorism?
BUSH was on holiday for 42 per cent of the eight months before September 11, letting his guard down, according to Moore. At a 9/11 commission hearing, CIA director George Tenet admitted he had known since August 2001 that Zacarias Moussaoui, the only man charged in connection with 9/11, had been taking lessons on how to fly a 747. Tenet claimed he didn't tell Bush because the president, "was on vacation".




What about Clintons reaction to the previous attacks?
Quote:


9, DID Bush panic when he was told about the attack on the twin towers?




subjective.
Quote:


10, DID Bush manipulate the major US media companies to fix his 2000 election win?
BUSH'S cousin John Ellis, a Fox News executive, was instrumental in "calling it" for Bush/Cheney on election night and cowed the other networks into joining in. This confusion helped set the scene for the debacle that ended in his election despite Al Gore winning the popular majority.




Moore also claims that John Ellis built a time machine, went back in time, and re-wrote the laws of elections with some fanciful new invention called an "electoral college" or some such Bush Doublespeak.

I wish that Geedub would pull a Clinton and have problem people end up commiting suicide in a park with no gunpowder residue on their hands and such.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2714831 - 05/22/04 03:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"captain obesity"?

how childish can one get?


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Positronius]
    #2714910 - 05/22/04 04:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you haven't been in PAL long, have you?

just watch...it gets better!

:smirk:


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: afoaf]
    #2714926 - 05/22/04 04:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I find it funny how people are bashing the film and trying to take it apart when they haven't even seen it yet.


--------------------
"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

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Offlinelacerated_dream
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2715663 - 05/22/04 08:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

HagbardCeline - Way to be contrary. Do you support Bush? Hmmm...

I'd be willing to bet that most of the facts that you presented are from major media sources. Not to discredit them or anything, but these are the very sources which this movie seeks to disprove. The sources which blind the general public from reality.

"First, hasn't Osama renounced his family and they him? They have a close relationship with the Saudi family whom I believe Osama hates nearly as much as us.

Secondly, the bin Laden family is obviously very wealthy. Is it uncommon for wealthy families to know each other and have business dealings together? Is it illegal?"

What are your sources for this info? Perhaps it isn't illegal, but is it not a bit suspicious?


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OfflineAldous
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Learyfan]
    #2719666 - 05/23/04 08:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hehe, Moore was awarded the Cannes 2004 Golden Palm, the highest award of the festival.

He found a distributor in most countries, even in Albania. Just curious if he gets to find one in the States...?!


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Aldous]
    #2720056 - 05/23/04 09:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Where did you get your avatar?


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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Aldous]
    #2720403 - 05/23/04 10:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I still say that if all else fails, he should put
up a ftp site and post that shit on suprnova
or something.

just get it out already.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2720689 - 05/23/04 11:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm so tired of listening to your tripe.

set.gloves=off;

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
Quote:


It is said to be so powerful it could tip November's US presidential election against George W Bush. As Moore says: "We were able to get film crews embedded with American troops without them knowing it was Michael Moore. They are totally f***ed."




So now Captain Obseity is manipulating the military to the end of having them "totally fucked". Great guy.



First of all... "Captain Obseity"(sic)? Very mature. That's exactly how you should start all counterpoints if you want people to take your seriously. Nice first move.

The point here is: Moore is anathema to the Bush administration, and since Bush is the Commander in Chief of the US Military, would therefore be frowned upon to have full access to what is going on behind what the "news" media reports. By getting access to military bases and Iraqi prisons without tipping his hat, he and his crew were likely able to get more of an insider's look at what was actually going on. Why would he do this? To "fuck" the troops? Likely not. Maybe to tell another side of the store that wasn't likely to see light of day without being exposed by alternative media sources? I'm going with that.

Quote:

Quote:


Disney has refused to distribute the film in the States, saying its content could upset the presidential elections. Moore says that's precisely why the public should see it.




I don't think thats why Disney said that they didnt' release the film. Is their a source for this, or is it as imaginary as the attempt by Bush to "ban" this film?



Disney (and more specifically, Mirimax, a Disney studio) have not given an official reason for pulling the film. But let's take a few things on faith. I know that will be tough for those who can't actually think on their own and need a freaking link to prove and theories or allegations, but let's give it a shot.

1) Moore's films make money. They cost remarkably little to make/produce, and have made money in the past. Bowling for Columbine made a killing at the box office (relative to the cost of the film to produce), and there is good reason to believe that Farenheit 9/11 will be even more successful. So if a profitable movie is pulled from distribution, is it too much of a stretch to believe that the distribution company has alterior motives for pulling it?

2) I won't really go into the mass media monopolies in detail, but let's just point out that Disney's parent company, AOL/Time Warner has it's hands in numerous media ventures. If anyone believes that they have not benefitted by having the current administration in control of the FCC then you really need to read more.

3) Disney is afraid - and this should be painfully obvious - of losing their unbelievable tax breaks, specifically those in Florida. And in case you've forgotten, Jeb Bush is still the governor of Florida. Walt Disney world does not own the land on which it's parks sit; it leases the land from the state of Florida for.. are you ready? 10 cents per square foot. I pay about that in taxes alone for my house every year, let alone what my land actually cost. They have the ultimate sweetheart deal. If you had an apartment or a house that you paid $40 a month for, and never had to pay taxes on the land to boot, would you be in a hurry to help produce a movie that proved that the family of your landlord was a lying, profiteering scumbag? I wouldn't either.

All you have to do here is put 2 and 2 together to realize that something maybe ain't right. Do we have a link to exactly what that is? Noo... but at this point, do we really have to?

Quote:

Quote:


1, AFTER the 9/11 attacks, why was the only plane to fly out of the US carrying 24 members of Osama bin Laden's family?




If they weren't removed and upset Americans lynched them in the streets, would Captain Obesity be saying that we didn't do enough to protect them? How much ya wanna bet?
Also, the FBI did interview them.




Incorrect. They were not interviewed by the FBI and several FBI agents have gone on the record stating that they specifically requested that certain members of the Bin Laden family not be allowed to leave the country and they be detained for questioning. These agents were quite specifically denied by the White House and given no rationale for this.

Oh - and bonus points for "Captain Obesity" reference #2

Quote:

Quote:


2, ARE the media covering up abuse of Iraqi prisoners and the disillusionment of American troops?




I, for one, have heard nothing about this "abuse" of Iraqi prisoners and I watch the news constantly. This one must be true.




You're shitting me. In the last 2 weeks you have heard nothing about the "abuse" of Iraqi prisoners? You have to be shitting here, so I won't even dignify this one. But since you're such a fan of "links", here ya go:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/magazine/23PRISONS.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48571-2004May22.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middlee...violence_surge/
http://www.sundayherald.com/42228
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1222817,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523992

Any questions? I have more if you need em.

Quote:

Quote:


3, IS Bush deliberately creating a culture of fear to get poor American youth to fight his war?




I'd say that Al Queada is doing a bit more for the "culture of fear" thing than Bush is.




So, as you see it, a culture where to dissent is "unpatriotic", where to disagree with and call out your president for unacceptable behaviour is "giving in to the aims of the terrorists", and where you're "either with us or against us" - this is not a culture of fear? In my own country, I can be afraid to put a bumper sticker on my car for fear of retalliation (Yes - I've already had my car hit and vandalized for my political views, to the tune of $3700), or knowing that I can't wear my "Kerry '04" tee shirt or my "Anybody But Bush" tee shirt in certain areas of my town without the distinct possibility of coming to blows over it - and you're saying that there is not a culture of fear in our country? Well, as you mentioned that you read a lot, try this one on for size:

"Culture of Fear" by Barry Glassner

Then get back to me.

Quote:

Quote:


4, HOW deep does the connection between the Bush family and bin Laden family actually run?




Irrelevant. The binLaden family has disowned Osama, and due to their religious beliefs, one patriarch of a family could have hundreds of children.




Again, entirely incorrect. Well, except the irrelevance of having hundreds of children - that part is actually irrelevant.

While some of the family have severed most of their ties with Osama, the connections to the family, family and Saudi sponsored terrorism, Saudi ties to Al Quaida, and the Bush family ties to the house of Saud run so much more deeply than you can imagine.

I can't get into the detail necessary to educate you on this subject, but here's another book for you:

"House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties" by Craig Unger

And the connections run rampant - here's a recent tidbit not to have made the "Liberally Biased" US news:

On Friday, May 14th, a bank in Washington DC - Riggs Bank - was fined $25 million by the US Treasury because it was found that there was sufficient evidence to say that this bank laundered money (undisclosed amount, but a $25 million fine suggests that it was more than a few thousand dollars, yah?) that found it's way into middle-eastern terrorist organizations, and that some of that money filtered through the Saudi royal family before doing so. Why is this story interesting? Anyone want to guess the name of the CEO of Riggs Bank? His name is Johnathan Walker Bush. The uncle of your esteemed president.

So... irrelevant? Hardly.

Quote:

Quote:


The campaigner says: "The bin Laden family have extensive dealings with large companies in the US. They have donated $2m to Bush's alma mater, Harvard. They own property in Texas, Florida and Massachusetts. In short, they have their hands deep in our pants."




Hm, didn't Bush go to Yale? Maybe Bush and the Japanese were conspiring for Pearl Harbor, as they own alot of land in America.




Bush got his undergraduate degree at Yale and his MBA from Harvard.

And the problem with your second "theory" is that the Japanese "royal family" didn't have a pile of business ventures with the family of FDR. Of course, if you can find evidence that they did, I'm sure it'd make a terribly interesting book.

Quote:

Quote:


5, JUST how sinister was the White House's doctoring of Bush's military record?

MOORE suggests that, far from being simply an exercise in proving that Bush attended to his Texas Air National Guard duties, the White House version also sought to hide evidence that Bush and his associates had close ties with various Saudi oil companies. He also suggests that a former military pal of Bush's, James R Bath, once sold a plane to the bin Laden family.




I'm not sure that the military records contain information about ties with oil companies, and I'm sure that they don't contain information about who's friend sold who planes. Just my .02$.




I'm not sure what the author was getting at here, nor am I sure what you're rebutting, so I'll leave this one alone.

Quote:

Quote:


6, DID Bush miss an opportunity to nail bin Laden during secret talks with the Taliban?




I wonder why Captain Obesity isn't bringing up the times when Clinton could have killed him...




"Captain Obesity" x3. I'm pretty sure you win something for that.

About the Clinton thing; Moore has always been critical of Clinton. He liked him better than he likes the Bush cabal, but was hardly an apologist. And as neither of us have actually seen this movie, I don't think either of us know that he isn't indeed bringing up Clinton on this.

That said, I believe that he's bringing up a question: "DID he...", not "he did..."

It has come out this past week that the Bush administration had at least one opportunity to assassinate al-Sadr and three shots at killing Zirqawi (sp? - the man claiming responsibility for the beheading of Nick Berg) since taking office, and deliberately chose not to do so. So how do we justify this?

Quote:

Quote:


MOORE claims that while Bush was governor of Texas he built a relationship with the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan. They met in Texas to discuss a project to build a natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and into Pakistan.




Well, if Captain Obesity 'claims' something, it must be true!




Seriously... do you even bother to back up or debunk the things that you spend so much time on these boards talking about? You should give it a shot. Google is really terribly easy to use.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12525
http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/052201.htm
http://www.btinternet.com/%7Enlpwessex/Documents/newsweekpentagonalert.htm

If I can do anything else to further your education, please let me know.

Quote:

Quote:


7, WHY does the Bush family have a "special relationship" with the Saudi royal family?
"MORE than 1.5 million barrels of oil needed in the US daily from the Saudis could vanish on a royal whim, so we begin to see how not only Bush, but all of us, are dependent on the House of Saud," says Moore. "This can't be good for national security."




So then, we all have this "special relationship", right?




Brilliant rebuttal. I don't need to say a word.

Quote:

Quote:


8, WAS Bush spending too much time on holiday to concentrate on terrorism?
BUSH was on holiday for 42 per cent of the eight months before September 11, letting his guard down, according to Moore. At a 9/11 commission hearing, CIA director George Tenet admitted he had known since August 2001 that Zacarias Moussaoui, the only man charged in connection with 9/11, had been taking lessons on how to fly a 747. Tenet claimed he didn't tell Bush because the president, "was on vacation".




What about Clintons reaction to the previous attacks?




What about this Clintons' reaction??? If you actually read half as much as you claim to, then you might have read Richard Clarke's book "Against all Enemies", in which Clarke, Clinton AND W's senior advisor on terrorism outlines the many many steps that the Clinton administration took following the terrorist attacks against US interests under the Clinton administration, which, though not perfect, were successful in thwarting such attacks as the bombing of Logan International Airport in Boston (which never occurred) and the Millenium Bomb Attack at LAX (which also never occurred). Clarke then goes on to outline the many many steps that the Bush administration refused to take along the same lines, putting counter-terrorism on the back burner. Clarke went so far to say that Bush did so no because he didn't care about terrorism, but because Clinton cared about it so much and Bush was quite simply allergic to anything Clinton.

As you seem to be.

And your question here was...?

Quote:

Quote:


9, DID Bush panic when he was told about the attack on the twin towers?




subjective.




Not really. There's a group of people out there who believe that Bush et. al. Let It Happen On Purpose (LIHOP). The LIHOP theory has it's merits, but even I can't let myself be so cynical as to believe that they truly Let It Happen. But it makes for interesting reading.

Anyway, there are some very detailed time-lines associated with the LIHOP theory, combined with video footage that show Bush's reaction after being told of the second plane hitting the WTC (oh - and he was outside the school when he was told that the first plane hit, whereupon he remarked "Boy, that's one bad pilot." He chose to go into the school anyway.) It's interesting to note that he continued reading to the children for 19 minutes after the second plane hit.

Not that you were actually interested in discussing this one.. but I thought I'd share anyway.

Quote:

Quote:


10, DID Bush manipulate the major US media companies to fix his 2000 election win?
BUSH'S cousin John Ellis, a Fox News executive, was instrumental in "calling it" for Bush/Cheney on election night and cowed the other networks into joining in. This confusion helped set the scene for the debacle that ended in his election despite Al Gore winning the popular majority.




Moore also claims that John Ellis built a time machine, went back in time, and re-wrote the laws of elections with some fanciful new invention called an "electoral college" or some such Bush Doublespeak.




So now you don't believe that there were any shenannigans during the election of 2000? You are either hard headed, or purposefully ignorant. And I'm not sure it's not both.

Well, since I've already given you at least 3 books to read, I don't imagine you'll go pick up Greg Palast's "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy"... but here - at least read a short interview with him regarding the 2000 election:

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/2002/11/04_Palast.html

Quote:

I wish that Geedub would pull a Clinton and have problem people end up commiting suicide in a park with no gunpowder residue on their hands and such.




Again, I bow to your sublety and wit, and recuse myself from comment.

Gern


--------------------
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2720756 - 05/23/04 11:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

2, ARE the media covering up abuse of Iraqi prisoners and the disillusionment of American troops?



Quote:




I, for one, have heard nothing about this "abuse" of Iraqi prisoners and I watch the news constantly. This one must be true.








You're shitting me. In the last 2 weeks you have heard nothing about the "abuse" of Iraqi prisoners? You have to be shitting here, so I won't even dignify this one. But since you're such a fan of "links", here ya go:




Heh, you're going to smack yourself in the head when you read this over man. He was trying to refute all the allegations, and this allegation was "ARE the media covering up abuse of Iraqi prisoners and the disillusionment of American troops?" and so he sarcastically said he hadn't heard of any abuse of Iraqi prisoners. It was like saying, if the media is covering up abuse of the Iraqi prisoners, then why the hell does everyone know about it?

Other than that good post though


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Ravus]
    #2721169 - 05/24/04 02:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I suppose that's possible, Ravus :smile:

Irony is so damn ironic.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlinelacerated_dream
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2721623 - 05/24/04 05:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You said it GernBlanston... its almost as if we have some of George's administration among our ranks...

So does anyone know about this film's release? Maybe if Moore can't find a distributor then he'll just release it over the net... wouldn't have nearly the same impact, of course...


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: lacerated_dream]
    #2721669 - 05/24/04 07:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The screener copy of the movie is already circulating on p2p networks.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: 10 Reasons Bush wants to ban Moore film [Re: Learyfan]
    #2722041 - 05/24/04 11:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)



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