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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Entelle]
    #2113017 -

"happiness is not a given, it is a reward for balance of life."
YES!!!!!

"i've spent a little time at anti-psych before, but to me their ideas seem to be in line with the family who refuses treatment for a child because "god" wills it."

Well that you opinion.

And mine is this, you are wrong. :smile:

Have you ever dealt with the mental health system in any country??????
Have you or anyone you know been abused???????
I THINK NOT

I like the site MAD PRIDE
not because I am crazy, but because I am free!
Watching TV all the time and eating shit food is going to make you DEPRESSED
SUPRISE!!!!!!
so instead of taking a pill, and curing the symptom , cure the disease.:)


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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2119109 -

Quote:
Have you ever dealt with the mental health system in any country?????
Have you or anyone you know been abused???????
I THINK NOT

I like the site MAD PRIDE
not because i am crazy, but because I am free!
Watching TV all the time and eating shit food is going to make you DEPRESSED
SUPRISE!!!!!
so instead of taking a pill and curing the symptom, cure the disease.


who is this question/assumption intended for (you quoted two different people in the beginning of your post)? if this was for me, you might want to re-read my post (the whole thing). the health care system in my country (USA) is certainly filled with greed and BS, but it exploits real science and real illness. true clinical depression is a degenerative and frequently fatal disease. it can significantly impair the function and damage the structure of both mind and body. like cancer, the cause varies and is most often a combination of genetic and environmental risk factors. like cancer removing one or even all the risk factors won't cure the disease in its advanced state. to suggest that a person should try to simply "will" it away by acting like nothing's wrong is illogical and socially irresponsible. celebecy won't cure aids, especially if you got it from a blood transfusion.

you say that depression is "just an hypothesis, not science". that doesn't even make sense. science is based on hypothesis. science is by nature incomplete; if it weren't then we'd be omnicient. science is the collection and study of fact, not fact itself. because of this inherent imperfection there will always be outliers, exeptions to the rule. the experience of depression as you described it is clearly one of these.



--------------------
Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

Formula: 0

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #2120102 -

wow your story sounds exactly like mine. i always had the same problems, with motivation and depression although i was very smart and creative. i lost interest in school and at around 19 i started to use alcohol as a medication, and have continued on until a few days ago (im 24 now :eek:.) and im trying to quit drinking again

i had some berief 2-3 week breaks from alcohol in the past year, where i took taking st. johns wort, working out and trying to get my shit together, but then depression would hit me out of nowhere and i would be a mess for weeks and would start drinking again. i know the alcoholism was a big factor in bringing me down further, because it would bring my highs to such a low point but my lows would become extremely lower. but i also know that i had always been a depressed person since i was about 13 also.

i had just been in denial about it and im finally telling people about it. i dont think my depression is as bad as yours sounded, but maybe because i drank so often everyday) that i drowned it out... who knows. i think my depression is seasonal also, so it might be milder then what you experienced but it did still ruin relationships and motivation, along with booz

did the meds you currently take mess with your creativity at all? i ask because i am planning to go to art school in the spring and have thought about taking meds... but i wouldnt if they messed with my creativity. i tried taking a few friends meds, and each one (zoloft, paxil and lexapro) all made me feel strange and out of place.
thanks :smile: 


--------------------
http://www.infowars.com

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2120117 -

This isnt a direct quote, but more of a summary. I saw an interview with maynard james keenan (APC/Tool) and the question was something like are you happy?

maynard: Right now, yes. But that's the thing about emotions, you're supposed to have them ALL. people who are happy ALL the time are clearly on fucking prozac.

I thought it was a very intellegent thing to say. The need to be happy all the time is so pushed in our culture, its fucked up. Being happy all the time pretty much reders useless the whole point of being happy! :grin:


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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #2120254 -

Hey BrainFarmer,
I completely agree with u.
People who dismiss Depression obviously have no idea
what it's like. I know, cause I used to be that way too,
thinking that all those crazy depressed people were
that way because they were materialistic etc and not
Spiritual enuff. In retrospect I was quite judgemental.
I never watched TV, meditated, exercised (actually
raced - cycling competitively, and worked out with weights),
etc. All the so called ingridients of a healthy lifestyle.
I was a pretty happy guy all my life. All that changed
about 9 months ago after a Traumatic Shroom trip. Now,
because of that one mistake, I know that Depression
is real ! and no ammount of meditation or healthy lifestyle
will cure it. I've been on Effexor for 8 months now, but
altho it's helped slightly, I'm still very depressed and
Anxious - if I get health insurance I plan to give Celexa a
try.
In my case Shrooms caused my Depression, so to those who
advocate Shrooms as a panecea, please realize that it's not
and can cause irreperable damage. I don't condone it's use
despite what it's done to me, but I don't go around evangelizing
it either...
Yea, I have some disdain for Psych too, and I agree that docs
are all to eager to hand out SSRI's, but that doesn't mean that
they should be dismissed altogether. In some cases no ammount
of meditation, life style change, reiki or other New-Age hookey will
help and medication must be explored...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2120265 -

if i feel unhappy i call it being depressed

what you are saying is almost like saying happiness is a myth because it's merely a release of serotonin that goes well, depression is merely the lack of serotonin

therefore, neither happiness nor sadness truly exist

all i know is if i FEEL something, i fuking feel it


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So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. - Galatians 5:16

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: HB]
    #2124028 -

maynard: Right now, yes. But that's the thing about emotions, you're supposed to have them ALL. people who are happy ALL the time are clearly on fucking prozac.

I thought it was a very intellegent thing to say. The need to be happy all the time is so pushed in our culture, its fucked up. Being happy all the time pretty much reders useless the whole point of being happy!

TRUE!!!!!

and Brainfarmer , I HAD DEPRESSION and I DIDNT NEED MEDS, I NEEDED A CHANGE IN LIFE AND MY DIRECTION, Depression as it stands is MYTH

I am not saying it CANT HAPPEN, but its because of the WAY you LIVE !, or the pollution you INGESTED, are many people like you are afraid to watch less TV, change their diets ,or devlop some new hobbies???

Meditaion in which you implant thoughts into the subconcious works well also, and herbs, DONT TRY TO SAY.........."you dont understand me"

I DO

I have been VERY DEPRESSED for long periods of time before, but NOW life is great and for those who DONT want to be hoked on meds, I am sharing my experience!, I AM HAPPIER NOW THEN I EVER HAVE BEEN!

with NO MEDS!

If your meds are not simply an addiction are a genuine medication, stop for one day, and feel the whiplash of poison leaving your system.


--------------------

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2124031 -

Your so damn happy that it depresses me


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: OldSpice]
    #2124037 -

:smile:


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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2143810 -

Quote:
I HAD DEPRESSION and I DIDNT NEED MEDS, I NEEDED A CHANGE IN LIFE AND MY DIRECTION, Depression as it stands is MYTH 



good for you.  you are fortunate, however the simple changes you made will have little effect on the average patient, especially in acute cases of major depression.  you cannot make generalizations based the experience of a single person.

the simple fact is: depression kills.  more people die by suicide than by homicide, twice as many as die of HIV/Aids.  suicide is the 3rd greatest killer of people age 15-24.  and by far the most common cause of suicide is untreated depression.  to suggest that treatment is unneccesary is downright irresponsible, and the reason for my uncomplimentary rating of you.  bullet wounds and broken bones can heal on their own, but it makes more sense to seek medical attention.

Quote:
I am not saying it CANT HAPPEN, but its because of the WAY you LIVE !, or the pollution you INGESTED, are many people like you are afraid to watch less TV, change their diets ,or devlop some new hobbies???

Meditaion in which you implant thoughts into the subconcious works well also, and herbs



please read my posts thouroughly before responding.  i am a vegetarian, i eat mostly organic produce, i am a student and practitioner of zen buddhism, i have more hobbies than i have time for (art, music, writing, microscopy, reading science books/magazines, to name a handful).  the few programs i watch on television are educational or current events shows on PBS.  my lifestyle is not the source of my illness.

Quote:
DONT TRY TO SAY.........."you dont understand me"



i haven't said this once, although you've accused me of it repeatedly.  whether or not you "understand me" is of little relevence.  like you, i am but a single person.  the pathology and treatment of depression is based on data collected from hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people.  your experience, while important to you, is but a tiny speck in the big picture.

Quote:
If your meds are not simply an addiction are a genuine medication, stop for one day, and feel the whiplash of poison leaving your system.




thats ridiculous.  take an aids patient off of his/her anti-virals and you will have one unhappy camper.  does that mean hiv is simply an addiction to anti-virals?

Quote:
I have been VERY DEPRESSED for long periods of time before, but NOW life is great and for those who DONT want to be hoked on meds, I am sharing my experience!, I AM HAPPIER NOW THEN I EVER HAVE BEEN!

with NO MEDS!




i just reread your first post and realized that you are basing your opinion on experience with a single drug, prozac.  my experience with prozac was also very negative.  but i had tried virtually everything else, so i did some research.  i discovered that there were dozens of different medications and combinations available.  so i continued the process with the aid of a competent psychiatrist and before long medical science provided me with an effective treatment.

without the option of medication I would be dead.  for this reason i've gotten a little emotional in this thread.  aparantly not as emotional as you, however, considering i've yet to YELL AT YOU WITH MY CAPS LOCK!!!!!!!

nowadays life is good, can't complain, happy, productive, goal oriented; all of these wonderful things am i.  and really tired of typing.

this horse is dead, IMHO.  reallly, reaalllly dead.  sorry for making y'all do so much reading!


BF

oh, btw-  the devil didn't put dinosaur fossils in the ground to deceive us. there really were dinosaurs.  some of them even had feathers.


--------------------
Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

Formula: 0

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #4901104 -

It seems a bit ironic that here in a group dedicated partly to exploring the relationship between various chemicals and the human mind/body that there would be such a controversy over the topic of using anti-depressants in a conscious manner.

I agree totally that there are people who are prescribed these medications by the health industry we have today who would probably not really need them. On the other hand I also feel very strongly that there are many people for whom anti-depressant drugs are a miracle - myself included. What I really shy away from are attitudes of strictly defining this subject one way or the other.

It is just like using entheogens. There are people I know whom I would say should NEVER use an entheogenic substance (or at least not until they substantially change who they are). Entheogenic use in the wrong time or place can really mess one up. However, to just criminalize all use of entheogens on the basis that some people may be hurt by their use is in my mind a bit heavy handed to say the least. There are those who definitely benefit in many ways that cannot be really accurately measured by having been exposed at some time in their lives to an entheogenic substance. Again, myself included.

I think that what I would like to see instead is more of an emphasis on educating people as to how best to use chemicals, and then to place more trust in the people to make the best choices for their lives. Whether we are talking about entheogens or about anti-depressants, the basic underlying theme is that people <can> choose what is best for them. We don't need Santa Claus or the Government or God to watch out for us to make sure we are prevented from doing something wrong.

If a person can have pain taken from his or her life because of the use of an anti-depressant drug, AND if that person is educated about what the drug's side effects are (physiologically and spiritually), AND if the person takes the drug with consiousness, THEN I would say that nobody ought to second-guess the person or condemn him or her for his or her choice. Living with pain is no fun, and after a certain amount of time it loses its spiritual quality too. And if a person has exhausted other avenues of living without the pain of depression, and it still keeps happening, and a drug can help, then I feel that to condemn a person for using the drug is very uncompassionate.

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: saukkomies]
    #4901112 -

Ughhh

People have been going through depression for 1000's of years - Deal with it like a man.

Seriously, you mindless atomiton - Thats basically taking drugs as an escape and I just can't condone this behavior.
:shrug:


--------------------
outputrotation said:
x-com and unsolved mysteries are the only things that have ever made me truly scared

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: TheDudeAbides]
    #4901333 -

>  Ughhh
>
> People have been going through depression for
> 1000's of years - Deal with it like a man.

So, given that logic, all of modern medical science ought to be tossed out the window... People have been dealing with high blood pressure (not) for 1000s of years without medication (by dying 20 years early). People have been dealing with polio, with premature births, with bacterial infections, etc for thousands of years also (by dying or living with pain and misery). 

If I took your advice in what you think "dealing with it like a man" would entail I'd be either in prison or dead right now. No thanks on either account.

> Seriously, you mindless atomiton - Thats
> basically taking drugs as an escape and I just
> can't condone this behavior.

Well, at least if I am a mindless "atomiton" I know how to spell the word correctly.  :tongue:

I completely disagree with you about treating pain with a drug as being an "escape".  Again, using your "logic" one would say that someone ought not to take aspirin for a headache, but to rather "deal with it like a man".

Perhaps some day you'll find the gift of learning compassion, unless that is somethin that is too "un-Manly" of you.  Until then there's just nothin' left to do but smile smile smile....

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: TheDudeAbides]
    #4901341 -

All i know is i have manic depression and if i didnt have my medication i would either be dead or completely insane.

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4901409 -

Meh, just expressing my oppinion wich I stick to and always will..

Sorry guys :shrug:


--------------------
outputrotation said:
x-com and unsolved mysteries are the only things that have ever made me truly scared

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: TheDudeAbides]
    #4901418 -

The_Dude_420 said:
Meh, just expressing my oppinion wich I stick to and always will..

Sorry guys :shrug:


The wise man is willing to change his opinion in light of new facts.


--------------------

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: TheDudeAbides]
    #4901440 -

Hey I hear you though man. I mean, people who use drugs to escape from life are not really being very conscious about it. It's folks that do that which give others who use entheogens for more esoteric and yes enlightening aspects a bad rap.

And I used to feel the same way too about anti-depressants. Until I developed a chronic case of depression that would not go away no matter how many things I tried - including sweat lodges, alternative herbs and medication including acupuncture, counseling, diet, exercise, etc. And although some of those things did help a little, they didn't take away the pain or the other associated problems such as rage fits and mental anguish that accompanied it.

And it runs in my family - it's genetic. All of my older family members on my mom's side exhibit the same symptoms. Depression in my case is not a matter of karma - it is really a matter of inheriting certain genes...just like baldness or high blood pressure.

And when I'm treating it with a prescription (Effexor) it is in remission, and I feel more like my old real self again. And so instead of "escaping" by taking the drug, I actually think I am "escaping" from my "real self" when I am NOT taking the drug. That is due to the chemical imbalance that is due to the genetic traits I inherited from my mother. That's as easy as I can explain it.

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: saukkomies]
    #4901453 -

saukkomies said:
>  Ughhh
>
> People have been going through depression for
> 1000's of years - Deal with it like a man.

So, given that logic, all of modern medical science ought to be tossed out the window... People have been dealing with high blood pressure (not) for 1000s of years without medication (by dying 20 years early). People have been dealing with polio, with premature births, with bacterial infections, etc for thousands of years also (by dying or living with pain and misery). 

------High Blood Pressure, Polio, Premature births, bacterial infections?
Comparing these to depression is well...I'm not going to flame.
--------

If I took your advice in what you think "dealing with it like a man" would entail I'd be either in prison or dead right now. No thanks on either account.
------Not implying you deal with it like a man "I'm saying its not needed buddy..
-------
> Seriously, you mindless atomiton - Thats
> basically taking drugs as an escape and I just
> can't condone this behavior.

Well, at least if I am a mindless "atomiton" I know how to spell the word correctly.  :tongue:
------So you have never mispelled a word eh?
---------

I completely disagree with you about treating pain with a drug as being an "escape".  Again, using your "logic" one would say that someone ought not to take aspirin for a headache, but to rather "deal with it like a man".

------Taking pills for pain makes sense - THATS WHAT THEY ARE FOR...
Taking pills for escaping the problems IN your heads - YEAH, I don't agree with that
-------

Perhaps some day you'll find the gift of learning compassion, unless that is somethin that is too "un-Manly" of you.  Until then there's just nothin' left to do but smile smile smile....


You completely misread my post and I think your a little close minded there - Stay off the zoloft buddy.

:thumbup:

I'm just a tad deffensive on this one - Feels like you were trying to attack me with your post.


--------------------
outputrotation said:
x-com and unsolved mysteries are the only things that have ever made me truly scared

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Re: I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt. [Re: saukkomies]
    #4901460 -

saukkomies said:
Hey I hear you though man.  I mean, people who use drugs to escape from life are not really being very conscious about it.  It's folks that do that which give others who use entheogens for more esoteric and yes enlightening aspects a bad rap. 

And I used to feel the same way too about anti-depressants.  Until I developed a chronic case of depression that would not go away no matter how many things I tried - including sweat lodges, alternative herbs and medication including acupuncture, counseling, diet, exercise, etc.  And although some of those things did help a little, they didn't take away the pain or the other associated problems such as rage fits and mental anguish that accompanied it. 

And it runs in my family - it's genetic.  All of my older family members on my mom's side exhibit the same symptoms.  Depression in my case is not a matter of karma - it is really a matter of inheriting certain genes...just like baldness or high blood pressure. 

And when I'm treating it with a prescription (Effexor) it is in remission, and I feel more like my old real self again.  And so instead of "escaping" by taking the drug, I actually think I am "escaping" from my "real self" when I am NOT taking the drug.  That is due to the chemical imbalance that is due to the genetic traits I inherited from my mother.  That's as easy as I can explain it.


Meh, I feel like a dick almost for making that last post :/

BUT I want to express my side of the arguement as well.
(No flaming was intended in the last post)
:peace:


Paradigm said:
The_Dude_420 said:
Meh, just expressing my oppinion wich I stick to and always will..

Sorry guys :shrug:


The wise man is willing to change his opinion in light of new facts.


The Wisest man agrees to disagree.


--------------------
outputrotation said:
x-com and unsolved mysteries are the only things that have ever made me truly scared

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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #4901468 -

Psilocybeingzz said:
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/depressi.htm
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/drugs.htm


I hope some of you will read this with an open mind, keep in mind depression is a "working hypothesis" , which means the people on meds are the "lab rats" so to speak.

And dont say...."well you dont understand how I feel" I suffered for years and even used, what I now regard as poison,prozac, 6 months I was on this addictive , sex drive  ruining shit.


These drugs are BUNK , and the depression THEORY is unproven.
www.prozacspotlight.org
http://adbusters.org/magazine/49/articles/oliver_james.html

http://adbusters.org/magazine/47/(for this one check out "maybe the drug industry should be given praise"
http://adbusters.org/magazine/36/toxic/

I am happier now then I ever have been in my whole life, and its because I exercise ,eat right, meditate, taking herbs and other plants:).....and because I got my life together I quit crying about NOTHING, started living again, by the way NO TV(or less is  great step IMO)

Peace
Psilocybeingz

 


Tom Cruise!  :handth:

I agree with Crayon here--they have scans that show BIOLOGICAL, measurable differences in brain activity and the sizes of regions of the brain (it shrinks) in people with depression. 

Glad you're doing better, but the tone and language of your post could just as well be coming from Falwell about gays or muslims....  I love your certainty.


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!

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