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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Dry run did take place
    #4620388 -

Take it for what it's worth from MSNBC this morning. They said that 5 years ago,  FEMA did do a hypothetical dry run through of how they would handle it if a huricane broke the levee in NO.

I wish I could be a fly on the wall of how that dry run through went down.  If what we have been seeing is the result of that :foreheadslap:

I'm not sure what can be discussed of this but I just wanted to let you guys know as I've had the news on a lot and it's tough to get every tid bit of info coming out unless we share it.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (09/04/05 07:31 PM)

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4620874 -

This whole situation will be debated for a while. People will be digging and investigating to find out what happened with certain agencies and certain officials. It is possible that some heads will roll.

I am not a fan of the federal government getting involved in stuff, but FEMA exists and it has a job to do. It appears as if it didn't get moving fast enough.

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4620900 -

I'm trying to imagine how the dry run took place. What considerations did they have, what did they project and why, where did they not factor something in and why. Like I said, I wish I was a fly on the wall for that one.

You know what a problem is with government agencies, and a Governor brought this up on the news, they have to follow forms and models they were taught to follow.

There is no room for them to be able to innovate or use creative imagination or just common sense to trouble shoot on the spot.

If they have a problem to solve, they have to solve it through protocols, no ifs ands or buts. In times of emergency, that doesn't cut it as we have seen.

To bad they can't test for that ability along with good judgment and give the guys more slack.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4621060 -

I think that this is the first national disaster to be judged on a political scale. Should we go back and look at other disasters and now look at them critically with a political eye?

This was a hurricane and a flood. I guess we need to look at hurricanes and floods of the past to see if FEMA is getting any better or getting any worse. The point is that to be critical, you need something to compare it to. This may be the worst national disaster in the history of the country.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4621092 -

Indeed, they have had more practice with hurricanes then floods. This with was the mother of all floods I think we have had.

They did know over a Cat 3 would most likely break the levee and how many people live in NO though. Even if it didn't take a direct hit, the storm was not projected to be a direct hit to NO in the final call, rain flooding the rivers and lakes, not wind was the issue and even the outer bands of a storm that size which they were well aware of it's size, 5 times larger then Charlie, was going to dump in a shit load of rain.

Speaking of experience, other parts of the nation have flooded before. The thing is, people who live in flood zones are experienced with it.

The people living in NO have had no experience with there area getting flooded. That had a to make a huge different with the after effects of this flood compared to others in the nation.

These things I am typing are not the result of hindsight. They could have easily been considered before hand.

What do you think about the comments about FEMA workers being trained to follow models and protocal only versus being able to innovate on the spot in an emergency situation where models and protocals delay responce?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4621139 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
What do you think about the comments about FEMA workers being trained to follow models and protocal only versus being able to innovate on the spot in an emergency situation where models and protocals delay responce?


We have a massive government, and the bigger things are the slower they move. Civil servants and bureaucracies are not light and agile and quick on their feet. I think that is just the nature of the beast.

This hurricane struck several states and it wasn't just relegated to New Orleans. People were suffering everywhere. The first initial reports were that New Orleans had miraculously made it through with little damage. Then the levee failed.

Think about the anarchy of the situation. This storm affected millions of people. Power was out, phones were out. Transportation was limited. Information was limited. It has to take a considerable time period just to gather all the information from all the relevant sources and design a course of action.

North Carolina had poor people still living in FEMA temporary shelters for over 3 years after hurricane Floyd. These problems won't get fixed quickly.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4621176 -

Well, a part of dry running the levee breaking should have accounted for the additional time that would have elapsed for the waters to rise in the lakes and rivers, even up river before the levee would give way.

Here is one I think they truly couldn't foresee and that was the anarchy. Looting yes. People shooting at relief workers, No.

Unfortunately that is a part of the problem that kept a lot of aide out from reaching and caring for those who needed it. It even drove 20-60% of police workers off the job from varying stations. The head of the Red Cross said in an MSNBC interview earlier today, they were not only kept out of areas for a time because of the anarchy but were taken out of area for there own saftey as well.

I give FEMA that one. I wouldn't have forseen it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4621856 -

NY- Police and firemen running to the seen
NO- Police deserting

The "Big Easy" indeed. If it aint easy, don't do it.


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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4622037 -

zappaisgod said:
NO- Police deserting


And looting Wal-Mart for a pair of new shoes.

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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: bukkake]
    #4622090 -

Much of the blame should also lie with the mayors and governors of these cities and states that have been so affected. New Orleans has a shortage of busses and couldn't get people out? That was their position in the day or two leading up to this disaster. That seems a bit questionable, considering a picture I saw yesterday of a parking lot FULL of empty parked school busses in New Orleans with water almost up to the tops...

They had warning that this was to be a devastating hurricane, and instead of working to get their people out of the city, it was every man for himself. Soon after the hurricane passed, the governors of these states could've called in their state National Guard for assistance, but instead it took what, 3-4 days? And it was the feds who ended up sending them in. Everyone dropped the ball here, not just the Federal government.

I also would like to say something about those people who are taking the position that these people who stayed got what they deserved. I realize I don't see any of this in this topic, but this has been bugging me. New Orleans has a large population of people who are below the poverty line. Many of them have no cars and just trying to find a ride to work every day was a struggle. Some of these people had no choice but to stay. They could either walk out of the city and brave the hurricane force winds outside, or they could stay in the city and try to survive in the only shelter they had. I know which one I would've chose.

As for a dry run taking place, that doesn't surprise me in the least. After doing a little of my own research I found several years old reports on the LSU website about a possible New Orleans flooding scenario, including references to scientific papers about a possible scenario such as what we face today. Some of it was chilling to read, as it is exactly what is happening down there today.

Here are the links if anyone is interested:

http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/convert%20to%20tables/New%20Orleans%20Study%20Areatf.htm
http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.ed...w%20Orleans.pdf


Quote:
The City of New Orleans was built on wetlands. Leveeing and draining has resulted in substantial subsidence such that most of New Orleans is now below sea level, with a maximum deflation of 13 feet. Within this bowl reside approximately 600,000 people.



The West Bank, south of New Orleans and across the Mississippi River, has a population of about 500,000 who also live within levee protected bowls. Recent research reveals that a slow moving Category 3 hurricane, or stronger, could cause levee overtopping and complete flooding of New Orleans, with the West Bank even more susceptible.



Floodwaters would have residence times of weeks. The resultant mix of sewage, corpses and chemicals in these standing flood waters would set the stage for massive disease outbreaks and prolonged chemical exposure. Estimates are that 300,000 persons would be trapped and 700,000 would be homeless; thousands could perish.


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Re: Dry run did take place [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4622111 -

Did the dry run include shuttling mass amounts of poor people in buses before the hurricane would strike?


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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