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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4553402 -

Indeed, I agree. It may be irrelevant for me to post that because I know the nature of emotions, and people will always try to make the pleasant ones their entire mindset or lifestyle. And of course, they won't usually succeed; humans may hate suffering, but they can't live without it, otherwise we'd destroy the entire point of having negative and unpleasant feelings and emotions.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553409 -

By trying to rationalize the behavior of a serial killer you are ultimately throwing in your lot on the side of stagnation and death. Serial killers violate their own survival instincts in order to ply their trade.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553426 -

You remind me of Timothy McVeigh


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4553434 -

Being a Nihilist, that doesn't bother me.

Quote:
Serial killers violate their own survival instincts in order to ply their trade.


Not if they do it properly, though this is very difficult. Serial killers really are playing with a bomb, as it only takes one small slip for it to explode in their face. Dennis Rader learned this the hard way, as after many decades of ticking the bomb finally went off.

However, it is theoretically possible; you just can't leave a hair, a fingerprint, a shred of evidence behind. Extremely difficult, but not impossible, even for a serious serial killer. The only way they violate their survival instinct in the end is by getting caught. Otherwise, they can survive, reproduce and even live a normal life.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553449 -

Being a nihilist should bother you.

"Nihilism: Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief."

that is a dark and dirty road to trod. Despair waits at the end.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4553456 -

It's better than the alternative.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553484 -

I used to be one. I had developed many of the same philosophical ideas that you propose. By 30 I was a mess of alcoholism and personal problems for which I refused to take responsibilty. Changing my attitude saved my life. My negative side still comes through occasionally...it was a difficult habit that I am still breaking. The alternative is happiness and life.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553593 -

Ravus said:
Quote:
Serial killers violate their own survival instincts in order to ply their trade.


.
Not if they do it properly, though this is very difficult. Serial killers really are playing with a bomb, as it only takes one small slip for it to explode in their face. Dennis Rader learned this the hard way, as after many decades of ticking the bomb finally went off.
.
However, it is theoretically possible; you just can't leave a hair, a fingerprint, a shred of evidence behind. Extremely difficult, but not impossible, even for a serious serial killer. The only way they violate their survival instinct in the end is by getting caught. Otherwise, they can survive, reproduce and even live a normal life.


By killing the people he killed, and how he killed them, how exactly did he improve his survival....?

*Seems* like the most "intelligent" survival instinct would be to avoid the "bomb", not setting one for himself....    :shrug:


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #4553604 -

I guess if you thought of it that way, it was detrimental to his survival because, even without getting caught, he still put a lot of time and energy into killings which really gave him nothing besides pleasure in return.

But in human nature, pleasure dominates. And perhaps, as a theoretical example, a suicidal serial killer who would've long ago blown his head off may get his only pleasure in life from killing other humans. In this case while the killings themselves would be detrimental to his survival, they may be a smaller sacrifice than what he would otherwise pay.

In Rader's case he definitely didn't help his survival; not that it matters since he's already reproduced.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553616 -

"In Rader's case he definitely didn't help his survival; not that it matters since he's already reproduced."

That is a clinical way to say it...like he produced a litter of little serial killers...


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4553672 -

:wink:

I use survival in a Darwinistic sense after all. I doubt his kids will grow up to be serial killers; I would bet becoming a serial killer has more to do with the environment's activation of your potential than the genetics themselves.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553675 -

Quote:
Ravus said:

a suicidal serial killer who would've long ago blown his head off may get his only pleasure in life from killing other humans.


Um ravus, if someone is so suicidal that the only way they can survive is to bound torture and kill others to get a little pleasure out of life to make it worth living, do you not see an underlying psychological problem, the "suicidal" part?

Does this sound like a healthy and well balanced or highly evolved individual to you?

When you add the suicidal part, you contradict your own comment about thinking his killings were fearless.

Sounds to me like such a person who is in so much suffering to consider suicide, was to much of a coward to take his own life so he took that of others instead to derive some temporary relief from the suffering.

I'm curious to know if you see the cowardice in that?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553687 -

Ravus said:
:wink:

I use survival in a Darwinistic sense after all. I doubt his kids will grow up to be serial killers; I would bet becoming a serial killer has more to do with the environment's activation of your potential than the genetics themselves.


Genetics may play a role. Remember that Veritas cited studies that said serial killers did not have the mammalian portion of the brain functioning normally. She didn't mention if it was a genetic disorder or not.

Anybody know?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553691 -

Ravus said:
But in human nature, pleasure dominates.


.
I would agree with this - with the stipulation that we have the individual intellectual choice to let it dominate....
.
.
Quote:
And perhaps, as a theoretical example, a suicidal serial killer who would've long ago blown his head off may get his only pleasure in life from killing other humans. In this case while the killings themselves would be detrimental to his survival, they may be a smaller sacrifice than what he would otherwise pay.


.
Is it actually pleasure that drives someone to kill themselves....? This is just theoretical, as you noted, but the suicidal killer would not be around to "enjoy" the pleasure of killing other people.... So it would seem that the "pleasure" would be derived from the ideology/planning of the act itself, not the act....
.
.
Quote:
In Rader's case he definitely didn't help his survival; not that it matters since he's already reproduced.


.
I would agree with this also, with the survival part.... The children are kind of irrelevant to this point of individual survival - IMO....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553758 -

Ravus said:
I was watching this man on TV tonight, and was simply fascinated.

This is a man who has transcended all good and evil, a man who has risen above other humans and even the common human experience. For all intents and purposes, he has become enlightened through his own pursuits, and in the end gave up his normal life and freedom simply to experience something both a part of and greater than himself.

The way he talks and thinks, it's simply beautiful. You listen to a normal human speak his mind, and see the sum total of all the prejudices and delusions they've picked up over the years. But you listen to a mind like Rader's, and everything opens up into a unique, unexplored territory; you see a mind of hedonism, of expansion, really a mind done with searching the common plains and wanting to climb that snowy mountain on the horizon. You may not make it over, as Rader himself found out, but it's the urge to explore, to continue beyond the normal into something beyond good and evil that represents the best human nature has to offer.

I know I'd love to meet him, this man who has gnawed away at a community and tortured individual people. He seems like the type of man who long ago realized the true nature of humans and long ago decided he was going to live life differently. For the constraints we feel are of our own making, and we can escape them and climb into a type of human rarely before seen. The journey itself will end most, but it's better to die tunneling under the ground in a bid for freedom than it is to die rotting away in this prison so immense some people can't comprehend anything beyond it.


I think your ideas are misguided. If he's not a monster, maybe you are. Why don't you tell this shit to the families? Accepting him and calling him beautiful doesn't make you enlightened, it makes you an idiot.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4553768 -

I didn't say I thought Rader was suicidal, but as a hypothetical example where an unknown serial killer would actually help his survival from killing others. With that in mind...

Quote:
Um ravus, if someone is so suicidal that the only way they can survive is to bound torture and kill others to get a little pleasure out of life to make it worth living, do you not see an underlying psychological problem, the "suicidal" part? Does this sound like a healthy and well balanced or highly evolved individual to you?


No, they would probably die off quickly, since the death of other humans is not always an easy medicine to find for this suicidal killer. Psychological problems are irrelevant; what is the difference between a problem and an aid? Only the environment in which it is utilized. In a peaceful nation, a serial killer is a major problem; if you're fighting the enemy in war, on the other hand, he could be an asset to have on your side (as long as he kills the other guys :wink:).

Quote:
When you add the suicidal part, you contradict your own comment about thinking his killings were fearless.


That was a hypothetical situation in which I believe the killer would get an advantage to his survival, even though the killings are detrimental in and of themselves. I don't really think Rader is suicidal; he doesn't seem like the type to me. Too selfish and egotistical in my opinion to be suicidal.

And I do not think all of the killers are fearless. The fear may even be part of the thrill for some of them. After all, when you've got nothing to lose, even the negative emotions can awaken something inside of you.

Quote:
Sounds to me like such a person who is in so much suffering to consider suicide, was to much of a coward to take his own life so he took that of others instead to derive some temporary relief from the suffering.


Possibly, but the killings would still be helpful to his survival in the overall selfish view of things. You could say it's better for that person to live and kill others than to kill himself and not live at all, as at least if he's living he's surviving and potentially reproducing.

Quote:
I'm curious to know if you see the cowardice in that?


I see the potential, but what does cowardice really matter? Intelligence is more important to survival than bravery in my opinion; being brave can often be extremely bad for your long-term chances of being on this planet.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553809 -

Forgive me for drilling you with so many questions. I'm just curious to understand your point of view better because, it's unique. Thanks for answering them.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4553825 -

Radar is incapable of feeling remorse for what he did, he is a victim too. In my opinion, to glorify someone so confused is immoral. He isn't a hero at all. You are trying to tell people he is. Your message is confused because you are confused, just maybe not to the extent that he is, maybe you are every bit as confused as he is.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: sox24]
    #4553852 -

The only person who knows whether Rader's capable of feeling remorse is Rader. No one else can really tell; he's feigned being both remorseful and being a sociopath at different times. How do you know he's not repressing his feelings?

I don't think I'm glorifying him, nor do I think it really matters to the victims. He's already done the damage to those people and their families; labelling him and saying he has no emotions isn't going to bring them back; neither will trying to understand him. Anything we do at this point in terms of discussion is irrelevant to the true actions; he has already killed, already been captured and locked up for 10 lifetimes. And unless he's made of cats, I don't think the planet earth will be seeing him roaming around again.

But out of curiousity, why do you think he's confused, and what exactly do you think he's confused about?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553861 -

Ravus said:
I don't think I'm glorifying him, nor do I think it really matters to the victims.


You share something in common with him in that neither of you know what you are saying. It doesn't matter to the victims because they are dead, he killed them. If they were even slightly alive and knew you were glorifying him, it would really matter to them. Maybe the families can speak for the victims, it's scary that doesn't cross your mind either. Lay off the drugs, man.

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