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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
compassion most important?
    #4339029 - 06/26/05 01:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i met some moslem dude last night who smoked me up with the kindest bud i've ever seen.

we started talking about world religions. he asked me this question: whats the big deal about compassion and making that the center of your faith (talking about buddhism)? isn't being kind to others something you should take for granted, like its a basic thing?

not sure if i agree or disagree; what are your thoughts on this perspective?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblebudsicle
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Registered: 04/19/05
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4339060 - 06/26/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i think that what he is saying kinda parallers to buddhist idea.. only that buddhists give it lots of pressure and value because of the nature of their peaceful way of thinking and practise and because compassion is good guide or inner "compass" in meditative practises.- and i doubt its "center" of their faith, just a tool/helper or somethin

dunno really.. just some thoughts, i bet egghead or some1 with lots knowledge has more to say about this


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4339063 - 06/26/05 01:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Take the world situation as your example. Are most people, really being compasisonte to one another, most of the time? Do you personally need to develop your compassion further? Do you feel just as much compassion for strangers and enemies as for your friends and family?

Next time this guy brings up this subject, as him if he thinks that the Jihad mad suicide bombers are being overly compasisonte, that should help him to realize whatsup.

Compassion is'nt a part time job. Its a full time spiritual practice, that requires constant mindfullness, awareness and application.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: budsicle]
    #4339104 - 06/26/05 02:08 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i didn't bring up suicide bombers, but he did. he said fanatics represent less than 1% of his religion (btw largest faith in the world and fastest growing) but americans have this view of islam because of tv.

sinbad, are you saying a person's compassion can never be "good enough", it's always insufficient so you have to keep returning to it with every ounce of energy? IOW it's not possible to be compassionate enough?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4339119 - 06/26/05 02:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

No, what im saying is that most people's compassion is limited, usually to poeple they like, or feel close, connceted, or people they can empathise with. Most people are not compassionate toward there enemies (this one takes much practice) or strangers, or anyone who they think is a 'bad' person, such as Hitler or Mugabi. Its easy to have compasion when you surrinded by people you like, family or those who make you feel good. its difficult to be compassionate around people who make you angry, frustrated and make you feel bad. Universal compasison for all beings (which is the corner stone of buddhism) is very difficult becuase of our conditioned notions of right and wrong, good and bad, and all other distinctions and separations we make between ourselves and others.

The reason i advised you to bring up suicide bombers was to provoke a strong reaction in your friend, to see whether he atually had compasison for those people who seem to have been held up by the american media as models for the islamic faith.


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Edited by Sinbad (06/26/05 02:39 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4339154 - 06/26/05 02:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

He doesn't seem to know the Qu'ran very well. Every sura begins with "Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful." Hence, the first two of Islam's 99 Names of GOD are "Compassion" and "Mercy," despite the fact that fundamentalist Muslims ignore this and assume a role that does not belong to humans, namely, 'Judge.'
This is the same grievous error that Jewish and Christian fundamentalists fall into.

Kabbalists describe this error as falling under the influence of the sphere called 'Geburah' [Will or Judgement] on the left pillar of the Tree of Life called 'Severity.' Without the balance of the opposite sphere called 'Chesed' [Loving Kindness], only human evil can result. The same explanation is given to the Nazis by Kabbalists.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4339169 - 06/26/05 02:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed Markos, Indeed. Such phrases from jesus spring to mind, such as "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and other such examples of mercy and non-judgement that Christian fundamentalist should think about.


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Edited by Sinbad (06/26/05 02:51 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4339237 - 06/26/05 03:05 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

well this dude knows the quran pretty well and had a lot memorized (i had heard about this sort of thing but never seen it in person). in fact he said the same thing you said markos about how god is merciful at the beginning of each chapter.

i doubt i'm doing justice to his whole outlook.  he seemed like a cool guy and not judgmental although i doubt his compassion was perfect.  although when we talked he talked compassionately about total strangers, not just family and friends.  and i'm a total stranger and he smoked me up, let me tell you that was pretty compassionate!  :tongue2: i wouldn't call him a fundamentalist.

i think he would say seeking god without being compassionate is as bad as being compassionate without seeking god.  but, complementary, they're still different in some way.  i was curious about people's takes on this aspect of what he said.

also,
i agree that a person's compassionate can never be perfect.  but does that mean it's never good enough?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4339249 - 06/26/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

We try our best. But who is to say that ones compassion cannot dawn into perfection? Once all dualistic notions have been thouroughly exhausted, who is to say that compassion cannot become unlimited?


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4339272 - 06/26/05 03:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

so your answer is that perfect is the only compassion that's good enough


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinedante
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4339326 - 06/26/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think that all Buddhism strives for compassion. I see it as something that occurs as a result, but its not really the goal.

I believe in generating compassion and I don't think it should be taken for granted, some people do not have such compassion. Many see it as the way to enlightenment, including the Dalai Lama.

Loving-kindness meditation is utilized to create compassion for all sentient beings. You sit and do this because you empathesize with people's suffering. You have sat and suffered yourself, and here, meditating, you see what suffering is. You see the Four Noble Truths. So it's something that will come naturally out of it, by choice, because you have seen the way.


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The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: dante]
    #4339581 - 06/26/05 05:50 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dante said:
I don't think that all Buddhism strives for compassion. I see it as something that occurs as a result, but its not really the goal.

I believe in generating compassion and I don't think it should be taken for granted, some people do not have such compassion. Many see it as the way to enlightenment, including the Dalai Lama.

Loving-kindness meditation is utilized to create compassion for all sentient beings. You sit and do this because you empathesize with people's suffering. You have sat and suffered yourself, and here, meditating, you see what suffering is. You see the Four Noble Truths. So it's something that will come naturally out of it, by choice, because you have seen the way.


this is correct. compassion should naturally arise from insightful wisdom and seeing the plight of fellow sentient beings.Relating to the suffering that all beings must endure flowers great compassion, and this compassion is supplemented by the wisdom you gain in meditation. Together, these two great aspects of the path lead to the highest realization with the goal of helping all beings.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #4339590 - 06/26/05 05:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You are absolutley correct. Thats how it is :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4339787 - 06/26/05 07:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

compassion is the path of relating to all types of beings gently and generously,
it is a splendid way, more so than a perfect way.
it is the middle way,
which is a kind of perfect thing in a direction where no such an extreme (perfection) has any place.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #4340507 - 06/26/05 11:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Prajna [Wisdom] embracing Karuna [Compassion]. Yab-Yum.
"Head and Heart are not apart." - Paul Reps


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4340986 - 06/27/05 01:41 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

interesting responses. in some ways i'd put sinbad in the same group as my friend, because the emphasis is on transcendence (perfect, myth-like compassion) (over immanence). personally i prefer an immanent god/salvation/enlightenment.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (06/27/05 01:55 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4341881 - 06/27/05 06:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Its such a typically human response, how you so easily lumped me into some catagory of your own creation. :lol:

So now im into Myth-like perfect compassion am i? :lol:

It must be by some unworldy myth-like assumption that you came to such a baseless conclusion. :lol:


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: compassion most important? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4342687 - 06/27/05 01:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

yes part of being human is categorizing things. i dont think there's anything wrong with categorization itself. maybe the particular categorization is wrong, but categorization in general seems inescapable to me.

Quote:


We try our best. But who is to say that ones compassion cannot dawn into perfection? Once all dualistic notions have been thouroughly exhausted, who is to say that compassion cannot become unlimited?





i understood this to mean the only compassion that was good enough was perfect compassion that transcends the human experience.
unlimited compassion- maybe the buddha had it or jesus. but figures like that are mythological for me; they may not be for you.

what do you believe? please correct me if i'm wrong. i'm curious.

if you believe in transcendence, that's cool with me. i think it's interesting. i thought that moslem guy was very interesting and had some interesting perspectives too. he blew my mind that evening with some of the things he was telling me.

it was cool, he and i talked for several hours, totally disagreed, but neither of us were offended and actually both of us really enjoyed struggling with the other person's perspective.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (06/27/05 01:28 PM)


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