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Offlineallmakescombined
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Compassion
    #3215773 - 10/04/04 10:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Is there ever a time (scenario) when compassion must be 'put aside'?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Blessed be,

~amc


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215779 - 10/04/04 10:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

at the onset of personal discomfort.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215845 - 10/04/04 10:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

When you have to eat.


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OfflineWhiteRussian
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215871 - 10/04/04 10:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

sleep, shit, or pee lol


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215891 - 10/04/04 11:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, I never thought of it that way... eating, sleeping, discharging, etc.

What do you guys think of during these scenarios?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215921 - 10/04/04 11:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Hopefully while peeing, they will reconsider having compassion for the next woman who will use the lieu and put the seat down.


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OfflineWhiteRussian
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215924 - 10/04/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Do what you want, if you dont want to be compassionate, dont be, if you do go for it, the only person thats its gonna make a difference to is you. If you feel like you have a problem with being too compassionate, focus on that, see were it comes from :smile:

you know all the answeres


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3215938 - 10/04/04 11:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Life feeds on life which feeds on life which feeds on life and keeps itself alive.  It must be done.

I don't think sleeping lacks compassion unless you strangle people in your sleep :smile:

Pissing and shitting just returns things to nature that we don't need which is fed on by nature by things like mushrooms plants and bacteria.  It only lacks compassion if you shit on someone's lawn or piss through thier mailslot.

Eating, however lacks compassion especially since the methods of harvesting we have are horrible.  If some other creature were to do the same to us like in the matrix, we would see it as horrible that the machines use humans to power themselves, just like a cow would feel if they could be allowed to understand what exactly is going on.

Even eating vegitable matter is the same.  It has lived and will die for us to consume so we can live.  It is devoid of compassion in the same way.

But what can you do?


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3217029 - 10/05/04 03:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

>> at the onset of personal discomfort.

But this is totally opposite to compassion. Selfishness thinks "My needs are primary and must be attended to first." Compassion thinks "The needs of others are more important than my own." To forego compassion at the moment it makes us uncomfortable is a purely selfish attitude. It means to forego compassion entirely, and to give ourselves to the pain of self-centeredness.


>> Eating, however lacks compassion especially since the methods of harvesting we have are horrible.

>> Even eating vegitable matter is the same. It has lived and will die for us to consume so we can live. It is devoid of compassion in the same way.

Agriculture is only as cruel as it is because human beings have conceived of themselves as the kings of nature. Nature's rhythm and harmony has become all too boring and unsatisfactory to human beings: our desires are not quickly met, and sometimes they are not met at all. Human beings seem to have a cavity within them that cannot be filled: it causes us to work tirelessly from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. every day for the sake of transforming organic material into material which cannot be readily reabsorbed into the organic cycle, all in the name of limitless material growth and technological conquest over the earth, so that we may be surrounded at all times with entertainment and luxury.

The fact that we must kill animals or plants to survive does not mean that we as animal organisms are fundamentally barred from an authentically compassionate disposition. The problem is that we as a species have taken to killing animals and plants not just for our own survival, but for our comfort and entertainment. For these petty wants, we thieve the rights of other species and destroy their populations.

It is not a problem with man's innate characteristics which prevents him from entering into compassion, it is a problem with man's perspective on himself and the world he is involved with.

In the case of plants, I think it's fairly safe to conclude that by consuming a carrot, an apple, or other such consciously inert food, we are not depriving other living being of their happiness, nor are we in any way forfeiting care and concern for the needs of others creatures. In the case of animals killing animals for food; it is also inaccurate to conceive of killing another animal for food as an inherently uncompassionate and selfish act.

At present, we look upon the animal kingdom and see a violent and ruthless place, where killers lurk in the shadows hunting frightened and helpless prey. Viciousness and cruelty are seen all throughout the natural world. "Mother Nature" is always on trial during television programs about extreme weather, or news stories about shark attacks. "Mother Nature's worst fury is seen in hurrican Jeanne", they say. "Mother Nature's most ferocious beast strikes again off the coast of Florida." Are things really this way? Are we not sipmly assuming that Mother Nature's attitude toward us is the same attitude we have toward her: violent, ruthless, cold and uncaring?

It is conceivable that in the natural world both predator and prey might share a certain understanding about the way of things, that predator might have gratitude for it's prey's offering, and that prey might have peaceful understanding of his gift to other life. After all, there are not a great many species who massacre entire populations of their prey. In fact, most predators take only what they need, allowing the rest to escape. Sometimes, after the kill has been made, the remainder of the prey mingle around, grazing on the grass while their fallen herdmate is devoured. Perhaps there is a mutual respect to be found between species, an understanding that all species have not only a sacred right to their place within the balance of life, but also a sacred responsibility.

Now, I'm not suggesting that it's absolutely certain any animals possess such higher reasoning: but it is unquestionable that we as human beings do. It is an option, and that means that the necessity of survival cannot be spoken of as inherently antithetical to compassion. It is simply an unfortunate mistake on our part that in lieu of any felt respect for the natural environment and those other creatures with whom we share it, we have subscribed to a kind of ignorant conceit believing that we are the earth's God-ordained superior, that the earth and it's inhabitants are here to service us.

And God said, man shall be made in my image, after my likeness: and let man have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. -- Genesis 1:26 NKJV


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3217250 - 10/05/04 07:36 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If 'Compassion' is a more accurate rendering of the metaphysics of Christianity in the sense that "God is Love' (1 John 4:8), and "love" [Greek: Agape] is Compassion; or in the metaphysics of Vajrayana Buddhism in which Ultimate Reality is Wisdom-Compassion [Prajna-Karuna, Yab-Yum]; or yet again in Kabbalism where Rahamin (Compassion) is an alternative for the central Sephiroth Tiphereth (Beauty, the Heart of GOD), then WHO can "put aside" Compassion? If Compassion is identified with GOD (at least the aspect which interfaces with creatures, if not the very Divine Immanence), then clearly it is not possible to put GOD aside. One can stifle the 'calling' and refuse to acknowledge one's human experiences of empathy, unconditional positive regard, pity, mercy, but that is akin to smashing a TV set, not shutting down the TV station which is broadcasting the signal. Can a fish "put aside" the ocean in which it swims and of which it is made?


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3217561 - 10/05/04 11:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, I don't think so....although there is a point of compassion  that can be crossed to the realm of self-harm. I have a problem with that!  You can still be compassionate while keeping your distance.  That is where the color black comes in for me, it helps put up a protective barrier, and keeps "me" in, so to speak.  :smile:


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Offlineallmakescombined
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Re: Compassion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3218009 - 10/05/04 02:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Shalom Mark! (You probably know who I am :wink: )

The answer to this thread was summed up well in yours and Peds post - especially the last sentence of your post with the timeless example of the fish in water; who are not only in water but made mostly of it. Without the water the fish because dry, dead, lifeless. It only survives briefly like the sleepers of the Dunya; as such, like those who do not know they are in water, but made mostly of it!

Ped, your first example is perfect - if we start to think of our needs before those of others; even in the face of discomfort, Compassion no longer becomes a higher calling. In regard to personal discomfort, it must not go too far. Otherwise the supposed compassionate being is now displaying a martyr-complex in his efforts to be compassionate. Compassion for one's self flows from compassion from others.

God bless :heart:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3218132 - 10/05/04 02:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

So groovy, I am gnawling a long time on this and related subjects.
It directly links to Jesus and his mountain-preachings, which elliminates the 'old law' (of revenge).

I have so so many thoughts, but always come to the conclusion:

Compassion stops, where it gives 'unequal, unjustified, unbalanced'(?) >rights< to others.

Isn't there something in the bible, that it is a compassion to prevent 'your brother' from any sin ?
I would somehow question that, because he has to do his own experiences with 'sins'. But if that 'sin' alters me in some negative way, I would do something against :wink: But thats's in context with 'his learnings' from that :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3218538 - 10/05/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Exacly, Ped.

But the fact that you eat a carrot or kill a chicken to eat (because you have to) is still lacking in compassion because of a compassion for the self over the carrot or chicken no matter how justified it is by parallel occurances all over nature. I bet that chewing a carrot alive is basically the most horrible thing a carrot could go through. To kill out of nessecity is not a harmless thing.

I think we agree except for that point.

Humans try to find balance in things, but there is no balance of (or fairness in) compassion when you consume of annother living thing for one's own continuance. It is neccessary for almost all things except those creatures which feed off of already dead matter (bacteria, fungus, vultures) Compassion for the self overrides compassion for the creatures around us and thus is unbalanced toward the creature. It is even more unbalanced when we take out entire populations, as you said.

This unbalance between humans and other living things on this planet is real and so big, we can't exsist without our mass production of animal and vegitable products. It is out of unbalanced compassion against for these living organisms which sustains us. I don't know what to say besides that is the way it is and currently, there is no other way it can be which I can think of.

Populations are growing. Populations are hungry. The need for us to be fed is real.

I would type more, but I GTG.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3218771 - 10/05/04 05:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

We eat way more than we "need" to, and even that isn't a need, it's a desire to sustain your own life at the expense of other life. Of course, this whole conditioning that life is so valuable as compared to inanimate objects, is a fallacy imposed by humans. The reason we see killing animals as wrong is that it conflicts with our own self-serving desire to sustain our own life, as we would not "want" to be killed.

It's all in finding a balance, and even an unbalanced system is really balanced on a larger scale. Just do what you wish, but don't consider it to be absolute :smile:


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Compassion [Re: Ped]
    #3218879 - 10/05/04 05:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But this is totally opposite to compassion. Selfishness thinks "My needs are primary and must be attended to first." Compassion thinks "The needs of others are more important than my own."




This, I disagree with.
I would label compassion more as "The needs of others are also important, as are mine."

Selfishness would be "The needs of others are unimportant."

You can look out for #1 while still being compassionate to others. After all, why give and suffer for others till you are no longer able to give and suffer for them? Best to take care of yourself so you are more able to take care of others.

Looking at it that way it's less opposite sides of a similar coin and more clear which is better. Compassion to the detriment of one's self is not compassion, it is self-sacrifice.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3222086 - 10/06/04 12:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

>> You can look out for #1 while still being compassionate to others.

Tending to our own needs is not problematic. I'm not saying that we should neglect our own needs, as that would be foolish. It's the idea that ourself is "#1" which is problematic.


>> Best to take care of yourself so you are more able to take care of others.

But you see, this is an unselfish attitude. Tending to one's needs so that one might remain equipped to be of sustainable benefit to others is deeply, powerfully compassionate. How often are we motivated this way, though? How often do we do things for our own benefit with the thought that it will translate into other's benefit? Very rarely. I don't say this to be cynical; I say it so that there can be a clear difference between the selfish mind and it's effects, as well as the compassionate mind and it's effects.

When I say that the selfish mind thinks "My needs are primary and must be attended to first.", I mean over and above the needs of others, that other's needs are secondary because we conceive of them as less important than ourselves.

When I say that the compassionate mind thinks "The needs of others are more important than my own.", I don't mean that with this attitude we neglect ourself. I mean that we stop conceiving of our own needs as being of higher priority than that of others. A mind like this has let go of self-importance, and is therefore not volnerable to the impatience and frustration which arises when other's get what we want or need ahead of ourselves. It is a mind which prioritizes the happiness and comfort of others over our own.

In short, a selfish mind neglects the needs of other people, and always competes with others for the most. A compassionate mind is always alert to the needs of others, and always gives way to other's benefit. We do not neglect ourselves, because that would be unwise. Without wisdom in our hearts, there cannot be compassion.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Compassion [Re: Ped]
    #3222317 - 10/06/04 01:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

In my oppinion, compassion is always doing the minimum amount of harm to other living things. However, that is the minimum amount of harm possible while still surviving. If we must kill an animal to eat, we should do it in the quickest, most painless way possible. If we must kill a person to survive, same deal. We should only harm other living things when it is nescessitated by our survival needs, and even then it should be the minimum amount of harm needed to survive.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Compassion [Re: allmakescombined]
    #3222468 - 10/06/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Part of your criteria, though, is that the minimum of harm should be done to secure your own needs. Why is your survival of higher priority than the animal you killed, or the person you killed? That is not compassion; that is self-importance. There is no empathy in that arrangement, only the moral letter. It is a dishonest and misguided way to perceive one's life, because not every person can be the most important person.

I don't see what is compassionate about putting effort into doing the least harm in maintaining yourself as the most important living being in the universe. To me, that just seems like an impossible way to live. It is contradictory. And to be blunt, it's lazy self-deception.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Compassion [Re: Ped]
    #3222638 - 10/06/04 02:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

fair enough, but to me, it is your philosophy that is an impossible way to live. I mean sure if i was truly benevolently compassionate and put other animals in front of myself, i would never eat, and i would die. If you yourself followed that criteria you would not be alive to argue with me. I dont deny that i live in self importance. This is the only way to live, simply because unless you put yourself before the other organic life that you must nescessarily eat to live, you will die.

i do not care enough about cows or vegetables to die for them, but i do care enough to hurt them as little as possible.


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