Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: Swami]
    #4239362 -

"Probably because we can't directly observe a photon."

So no, it doesn't count :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: Swami]
    #4239371 -

I never said we directly observed them, but we can and do observe them. No matter how many times and how many different ways you do the experiment, the result comes back the same: light acts as a wave when unobserved, and acts as a particle when observed. We know this because of wave diffusion and the strata of light and shadows that cause a pattern when unobserved.
**to Trendal: Im not saying that everything in the movie is fact, but then again, almost nothing in QP is, it is all just theories. If you are referring to the concept of Superposition, it is a real phenomenon, just as unexplicable as most of the other QP phenomenon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4239376 -

and yes we can observe A photon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4239396 -

and yes we can observe A photon.

With equipment, we can. Which is not "mere observation".

Now, as far as the experiment goes: what would make you think, in the first place, that an experiment would obtain the SAME results with a DIFFERENT apparatus?

I think that wave/particle duality has a LOT more to do with the uncertainty principle than it does with conscious observation.

If you actively attempt to detect a photon in mid-route, you will necessarily alter that photon, thus altering the outcome of the experiment.

I also think a lot of the confusion with QM theory stems from the fact that most of us humans still don't have anything close to an intuitive understanding of QM. I highly doubt that light is BOTH a "particle" and a "wave". It is probably neither...and we just don't have the language or concepts to understand what light really "is".


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: trendal]
    #4239410 -

have any of you even read about the Young Slit experiment? basically, the first primitive experiment was done with a simple detection device that monitored only one slit and gave a signal if it passed through it, and didnt signal if it didnt pass through it. There was another detection screen that showed the location of the impact of the photon, and after monitoring a shitload of single fired photons the pattern on the detection screen was that of particle behaviour. When the detection device at the slit was removed and photons were allowed to pass through unmonitored there was a wave behaviour pattern on the detection screen.
So far all the results using all kinds of different observational apparatus and techniques have been the same.

Furthermore we cant detect outlying solar systems and galaxies without equipment, so is all this mumbo-jumbo about other galaxies heresay?

btw, Heisenburgs uncertainty principle deals with the impossibility of knowing both the speed and location of a sub atomic particle at the same time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4239431 -

I wouldn't be talking about it if I hadn't read about it, silly :smirk:

The double-slit experiment is pretty much the first experiment introduced to anyone learning QM, as it explains the wave-particle duality to a T.

The reason I brought up the uncertainty principle is because it deals with measurement, which is what "observation" is all about. The uncertainty principle is, at its heart, a problem of measurement.

If you place a detector in the photon's path, that detector must alter the photon in order to detect (measure) it. Thus you have altered the apparatus for your experiment, and consequently should expect an alteration in the results.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4239433 -

Furthermore we cant detect outlying solar systems and galaxies without equipment, so is all this mumbo-jumbo about other galaxies heresay?

Please go back and read my posts, then tell me where I said that photons were "heresay" simply because we cannot directly "see" them.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: trendal]
    #4239452 -

The uncertainty principle deals with particle velocity and spatial measurement. The Young Slit experiment isnt dealing with velocity measurment at all, purely spatial, so it is in accordance with the uncertainty principle. Yes, by taking a measurement you invariably will alter the velocity or path a photon can take, but that in no way is a sufficient explanation for changing the entire FUNCTION AND NATURE of a photon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4239495 -

The uncertainty principle deals with particle velocity and spatial measurement.

That's quite a narrow viewpoint...almost a textbook viewpoint...

Yes, by taking a measurement you invariably will alter the velocity or path a photon can take, but that in no way is a sufficient explanation for changing the entire FUNCTION AND NATURE of a photon.

Finally, we come to the root of my argument! :smile:

I propose that the photon is not changing either its function or nature...instead it is our idea of what a photon "is" that does not adequately describe the function and nature of a photon.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: trendal]
    #4240089 -

Probably because we can't directly observe a photon.

Actually, Tren, an amazing fact is that the dark-adapted human eye CAN detect a single photon!  :cool:

This is of no experimental use that I'm aware of, but it's pretty cool and the only quantum event we can directly witness.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: trendal]
    #4240098 -

trendal said:
I propose that the photon is not changing either its function or nature...instead it is our idea of what a photon "is" that does not adequately describe the function and nature of a photon.



If we cant fully describe a simple photon.....then how can you say that the ideals presented in "What The Bleep Do We Know?" are wrong?

It is just a different way of looking at the data.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: niteowl]
    #4240190 -

How do you know a photon is "simple"? :wink:

They could be vastly complex, beyond the capabilities of human cognition.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: Diploid]
    #4240196 -

Diploid said:
Actually, Tren, an amazing fact is that the dark-adapted human eye CAN detect a single photon!  :cool:


Link?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: trendal]
    #4240372 -

Link?

How about three?

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/see_a_photon.html

http://www.atmob.org/Articles/AstroAndEye.html

http://staff.science.nus.edu.sg/~parwani/htw/c2/node10.html

One of my too-expensive hobbies is amateur astronomy where maximizing dark-adaptation is of importance, hence my knowledge in this area. It takes a few photons (as few as 5 or so) for the consciousness to become aware of them since single photons are neurologically filtered out by the brain as noise, but rods in the retina can actually detect just one.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/01/05 03:51 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: Diploid]
    #4240525 -

Yeah I looked it up myself when I got home from work.

Rods can detect a single photon, though cones cannot.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: trendal]
    #4241105 -

I agree with you that there is a possibility we arent thinking abstract enough or not even capable of understanding the nature of a photon, because that is what my point (and the point of the movie) were trying to make: that our current ideas of human perception and the physical functions of matter of all sizes is probably wrong, or not even able to comprehend the actual nature of photon phenomenon.

If it is possible that all our ideas so far about the mechanics of this universe are falsly founded, then is it not possible that the concepts presented in "What the Bleep Do we Know?" have just as much validity as our current cracked notion of worldy phenomenon?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4241447 -

psilocyberin said:
If it is possible that all our ideas so far about the mechanics of this universe are falsly founded, then is it not possible that the concepts presented in "What the Bleep Do we Know?" have just as much validity as our current cracked notion of worldy phenomenon?



That's the point I was trying to make.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: niteowl]
    #4242699 -

yeah, i guess the second part of my post was made redundant by yours.... :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Not another "what the bleep do we know thread" [Re: Swami]
    #4242744 -

Swami said:
Probably because we can't directly observe a photon.

I burnt my retinas staring into the sun on acid. Does that count?

You too?

I heard that a friend of a friend's brother had a girlfriend in my neighboring city who did the same thing when she was in high school. Last I heard, she's in a mental institution because she also developed a neurotic twitch and couldn't stop scratching at her eyes. :thumbup:


--------------------
"my old friend told me
to do well always
set your sails, open
ride your waves, flowing
just relax, sober
leave you past, it's over
bind two hands, stronger
my soul waits, forward" - Arjun and Guardians

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Does A Photon Have Awareness?
( 1 2 all )		 DiploidM 3,244 28 05/04/05 06:27 PM
by cubed
* What The Bleep Do We Know.....?
( 1 2 3 all )		 eMotionALLmotion 2,355 41 04/04/05 11:55 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* "What the bleep do we know?" niteowl 913 16 03/28/05 10:02 AM
by niteowl
* ADD/ADHD/ADDHDA: LIES? Your Observations Viveka 1,199 17 12/02/02 07:13 AM
by monoamine
* Experience of the Divine Sole_Worthy 2,448 19 07/22/03 03:40 PM
by Azmodeus
* An Experience of Heightened Awareness RebelSteve33 2,263 14 07/03/02 10:42 PM
by Traveller
* What the BLEEP do we know? gratefulgere 874 14 10/10/05 07:35 AM
by The14thWarrior
* What the Bleep do we Know question_for_joo 432 4 10/23/04 11:22 PM
by Swami

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,309 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 21 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.039 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 17 queries.