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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Experience of the Divine
    #1730402 - 07/19/03 05:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What causes the feeling of the divine and can it be explained by science?

me thinks that it can but I still dont think it is a flase experience. If the deivine gave the ability for our concsiousness then it would use our physical world to give us the ability. If that makes sence...

Maybe it could be said that the feeling of oneness is caused by blah blah aprt of the brain/mind.

hmm im lost


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1730634 - 07/19/03 07:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well, i would'nt try to encompass ALL that is considered divine. But, from what I  understand, electrically stimulating the temporal lobe is supposed to cause 'presences' of god, a loved one, or a foreign(alien) being.

I also heard of a some type of epilepsy that essentially makes one have visions of mystical proportions.

Heh, now all we have to do is find a way to electrically stimulate our noggin and we can experience Meaning in everything and god for cheaply. That would be cool :nut: .

What question's me though, is what would happen if these brain parts were destroyed? bye bye god? Bye bye religious feelings? bye bye feelings that are associated with being in a loved one's presence? 


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focusing
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: David_Scape]
    #1730663 - 07/19/03 07:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think if you set out to define the divine with science, than you missed the fucking point, probably not even experiencing it anyways.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1732063 - 07/20/03 12:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think defining the divine with science would be an excellent idea that would speed up the spiritual progress of the human race tremendously. But unfortunately we're not even close, and none of the previous posts even approached this problem, so I don't really understand your response.

Observing the fact that electrical stimulation of the temporal lobes causes experiences of the divine is not a definition of divine. The definition was there prior to the experiment, otherwise the observation could not have been made.

I don't see why experiences caused by electrical stimulation are less divine than similar experiences caused by drugs, or by epilepsy, or by oxygen deprivation. If science can pinpoint exactly what it is in our brains that brings on these experiences, then that knowledge will only make it easier to produce spiritual salvation. Ignorance, on the other hand, will only make it harder.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1732079 - 07/20/03 12:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Science does not try to explain what it can't understand when the object is unmeasurable or un quantifiable. I think that's the major flaw in science as it is today.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: MAIA]
    #1732698 - 07/20/03 05:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

But that is what science is. That is as far as science goes, by definition. Why extend science over everything? Can't they just create a new area of study? Why is it always science?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1732755 - 07/20/03 06:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I dunno, why dont scientists think in a different way? Why do they insist on logic?


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: David_Scape]
    #1732968 - 07/20/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Because we can't all think the same way. It's all about the balance. I think we were meant to use both ways of thinking, left AND right. Without logical thinking and deducement, we would have never have gotten this far, we wouldn't be here right now to even consider this. Sure, we probably should have used both ways of thinking at once as we went through the ages, but that didn't happen, so now the other way of thinking is catching up. Instead of one way favoring logic and one person favoring a more spiritual and belief thinking, everyone will have BOTH ways of thinking. Or something. hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: David_Scape]
    #1735011 - 07/21/03 03:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah. i thought that the DMT that nateralt occurs in the pineal gland or wherver might shoot us into the after death expereince, but what if you were shot in the head or had your head crushed or something?


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1735049 - 07/21/03 03:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

ok, lets take the psychedelic experience, im sure science can look at our brains and explain what is happening to cause that expereince.
but i still dont think that you can say, well this experience is not real, it is an illusion, because we can look at the brain and explain what causes these feelings.

surely it wouldnt be something super nateral cuasing this, it would make sence that our brains would be manipulated by the drug to cause the experience, as though it were designed for us.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1735067 - 07/21/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Everything is an illusion, man.
Science might be able to look at our brains and "tell" us what is really happening, but they only see what is working differently as it is happening. I don't think that this "bloop and bleep here" is what is causing the experience, rather, that is what is occuring differently BECAUSE it is happening. I dunno...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1735077 - 07/21/03 03:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

science cannot be personified or generalized, its just a method.

its not a group of people who tell us how to think.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1736050 - 07/21/03 08:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I believe science and religion are one and the same.. It just seems that science moves alot slower as they try and make hypothesis based on scensory information physicly measured.. Think about it we havnt found out anything substantial about physics that Buddhist monks didn't know 2500 years ago.. It seems that our doubt held us back from evolving ways to explore spiritual reality by meditation.. You must be prepared to let go of everything you thought you knew and let your consiousness expand beyond it's normal thresh hold..
I think I have came in contact with goddly dieties a couple times.. The last time was at the Om festival where I had takin a considerable amount of shrooms and needed to go pee.. I went to the bushes and proceeded when I felt a strange energy rushing from my root chakra and suddenly it seemed I was ripped out of my body and sucked into a leaf on a tree.. Inside the leaf I wintessed the birth of a microcosm universe containing Pervati/Kali which is Shiva's wife.. I coudn't see anything but her huge blue face staring at me from all directions at once.. I then snapped out of it and the whole experince only lasted about 5 seconds.. I've done alot of research and found out that the dietie I saw was Bon kali whihc is a goddess of nature and plants..


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1737943 - 07/22/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ok, lets take the psychedelic experience, im sure science can look at our brains and explain what is happening to cause that expereince.
but i still dont think that you can say, well this experience is not real, it is an illusion, because we can look at the brain and explain what causes these feelings.




Yeah, this is like saying, "you're not really feeling pain, you're just imagining all that". To say that an experience is an illusion just because it can be perfectly described in terms of brain activity seems silly, especially if the entity who says this is also a person who experiences things...

All experiences are real in the most fundamental sense, but they are also subjective. We experience a world that is created in our heads from the sensory inputs we receive from the reality out there. I believe that when we experience the divine, it is a testament to the fact that our brains are advanced enough to envision, at least partially, the divine nature of reality.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1737954 - 07/22/03 12:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
Yeah, this is like saying, "you're not really feeling pain, you're just imagining all that".




You are. I'm from the Maynard school on thought on this: "All This Pain Is An Illussssiiionnniiiionnniioonnn......"
And that's where the beauty lies. We choose what meaning we find in this life. Everything is an illusion, it is up to US to decide what is real and what is not. Depression, fear, regret, and anxiety is impossible to feel if it doesn't exist, now isn't it?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1737997 - 07/22/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And that's where the beauty lies. We choose what meaning we find in this life. Everything is an illusion, it is up to US to decide what is real and what is not. Depression, fear, regret, and anxiety is impossible to feel if it doesn't exist, now isn't it?




Well, if nothing exists, then it's impossible to feel anything, including pain and the divine.

I think we help create what is real, but you are saying we decide what is real? Do you mean you can just decide that something is not real and then it disappears?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1738169 - 07/22/03 02:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think you're missing the point, man. If nothing exists does not lead to then it is impossible to feel anything.
Our whole existance is a mere POSSIBILITY.

Quote:


Do you mean you can just decide that something is not real and then it disappears?



Not exactly that easily. It just depends on how reinforced the idea of whatever it is we're talking about is.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1738207 - 07/22/03 02:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I think you're missing the point, man. If nothing exists does not lead to then it is impossible to feel anything.
Our whole existance is a mere POSSIBILITY.




I will happily subscribe to that idea, if I may only delete the word "mere" :wink:. (Puts on his buddhist hat) are you talking about the dependent origination of phenomena? The world we populate as humans is dependent on a lot of stuff: our collective causal baggage, or karma. There are aspects of life that we can't escape, because of the dependent origination of human life-forms. So the fact that other realities are possible can't change the fact that we have got to live with what we have here and now. The bottom part of the "illusion" is very real for us humans.
   


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: David_Scape]
    #1738211 - 07/22/03 02:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I believe the brain is the tool for perceiving all these phenomena just like a TV, is a matter to punch into the right channel.
Right know most of us just have a set with a few channels and keep seeing the same show?s over and over lets say, shopping network, days of our lives, and the creep show.
All the other channels are blocked for some reason (I believe is due to conditioning)when we use ethogens or like those guys using magnetic waves is like getting hooked to a illegal cable box, suddenly you get to see a lot more channels.
Chances are if the brain gets damage you wont be able to get most of these channels or non at all.


--------------------


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Experience of the Divine [Re: Bhairabas]
    #1738383 - 07/22/03 03:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bhairabas said:
I believe science and religion are one and the same.. It just seems that science moves alot slower as they try and make hypothesis based on scensory information physicly measured.. Think about it we havnt found out anything substantial about physics that Buddhist monks didn't know 2500 years ago.. It seems that our doubt held us back from evolving ways to explore spiritual reality by meditation.. You must be prepared to let go of everything you thought you knew and let your consiousness expand beyond it's normal thresh hold..
I think I have came in contact with goddly dieties a couple times.. The last time was at the Om festival where I had takin a considerable amount of shrooms and needed to go pee.. I went to the bushes and proceeded when I felt a strange energy rushing from my root chakra and suddenly it seemed I was ripped out of my body and sucked into a leaf on a tree.. Inside the leaf I wintessed the birth of a microcosm universe containing Pervati/Kali which is Shiva's wife.. I coudn't see anything but her huge blue face staring at me from all directions at once.. I then snapped out of it and the whole experince only lasted about 5 seconds.. I've done alot of research and found out that the dietie I saw was Bon kali whihc is a goddess of nature and plants..




On a similar note, i've consistently communicated with the salvia "spirit" (for lack of a better term) not only when i smoke the plant, but in my dreams as well. ALL trips have been the same, and before this i didn't believe in "entities" or "spirits"......its intriguing to say the least...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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