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InvisibleStarchild
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Registered: 04/22/05
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Time Travel
    #4156804 - 05/10/05 11:26 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Many of you are probably familiar with the time-dilating phenomenon of high speed travel. What I'm talking about is if you travel at extremely fast speeds (say, in a high powered future rocket ship), time slows down proportionally to how fast you are traveling in relation to the speed of light. As you approach the speed of light, you will age slower and slower. So, for example: if you were traveling at 90% of the speed of light, 1 day spent traveling at that speed might translate into 5000 years on Earth, allowing you to effectively fast-forward 5000 years into the future. This theory has been demonstrated successfully by putting one stop watch on a shuttle that was blasted into orbit and keeping another stop watch, which was indentical and synchronized with the first, on Earth. The watch that was sent into orbit (traveling at about 18,000 mph) came back showing that a small fraction less of a second had passed on it than the one kept on Earth.

So, given all of that...we know that one day "time traveling" into the future will be possible. But what about time travel to the past? We all know about the crazy paradoxes involved with that...like if you went back in time you could kill your grandfather so that you'd have never been born; but if you never existed, you could not have gone back in time to kill your grandfather. So, unless traveling to the past involves the arrival to or creation of an alternate universe or something, it would seem to be completely impossible. And even if it were possible, how would one go about doing it? What are your opinions?


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Be the change that you want to see in the world.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Starchild]
    #4156815 - 05/10/05 11:30 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

this gives me another idea, If what you say is true, a travel to a distant star would seem like a day if you traveled at light speed, so a 5000 year travel would not be a problem for those INSIDE the ship


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: Time Travel [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156840 - 05/10/05 11:39 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

EXACTLY! I'm glad you brought that up, because I intended to include that in my original post. It makes perfect sense though, and it greatly disappoints me how we have completely lost sight of our space program when travel to the stars is barely out of our grasp today  :nonono:

The nearest star to our sun, Alpha Centauri, is approximately 4 light years away. That means we, on earth, have observed that light takes about 4 years to reach us from alpha centuari. We could get there if we found out a way to travel at even 1% of light speed.


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Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Starchild]
    #4156852 - 05/10/05 11:43 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting, so how long would it take subjectivly (from the point of view of pilot) to get there at 1% of lightspeed?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Time Travel [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156861 - 05/10/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

> As you approach the speed of light, you will age slower and slower.

Only from the standpoint of a (relative) stationary outside observer. From your standpoint, you age at the same rate as always and everybody else ages faster.

> but what about time travel to the past? We all know about the crazy paradoxes involved with that...

If you make the rule that you can only travel as far back in time as the invention of the time machine, then there is no paradox.

> And even if it were possible, how would one go about doing it?

The one theory that I have read that sounds plausable requires a 'wormhole' in space. You keep one end of the wormhole on earth and send the other end of the wormhole near the speed of light for a long time. When the second wormhole returns to earth, you now have a tunnel through time... but you cannot go futher back in time than when you created the original wormhole. (Wormholes are theory as well... nobody knows how to make one or if they even exist.)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Time Travel [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156866 - 05/10/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

And one more thing is interesting...
if a time machine was invented, travel with lightspeed would be possible through entire galaxy..
First you get there in a few years subjectivley, thousands of years pass on earth, you use your time machine to realign with the earth time and whoila, you got to the other side of galaxy in a few hours, and furthermore, when you get there it can be the same time that you left from earth, which would mean you spend zero seconds traveling, this is instant travel then


--------------------
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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Seuss]
    #4156891 - 05/10/05 11:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Only from the standpoint of a (relative) stationary outside observer. From your standpoint, you age at the same rate as always and everybody else ages faster.




That's what I meant, but thanks for clarifying. And anyway, isn't that all that matters for the purpose of time travel, that everything outside of your space ship ages faster and not the other way around?


Quote:

If you make the rule that you can only travel as far back in time as the invention of the time machine, then there is no paradox.




But who could guarantee that everyone would abide by the rules? Mistakes, bad judgement, greed, curiosity, etc. would ensure that the rule would be broken.

Quote:

The one theory that I have read that sounds plausable requires a 'wormhole' in space. You keep one end of the wormhole on earth and send the other end of the wormhole near the speed of light for a long time. When the second wormhole returns to earth, you now have a tunnel through time... but you cannot go futher back in time than when you created the original wormhole. (Wormholes are theory as well... nobody knows how to make one or if they even exist.)




Yeah, I've read much about wormholes and all that...unforutnately I think it's just wishful thinking now. Even if wormholes can be created, by all accounts you would be destroyed by going through one because of the massive tidal forces created by gravity. So I'm not too optimistic on the wormhole theory...


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: Time Travel [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156893 - 05/10/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
And one more thing is interesting...
if a time machine was invented, travel with lightspeed would be possible through entire galaxy..
First you get there in a few years subjectivley, thousands of years pass on earth, you use your time machine to realign with the earth time and whoila, you got to the other side of galaxy in a few hours, and furthermore, when you get there it can be the same time that you left from earth, which would mean you spend zero seconds traveling, this is instant travel then




Of course, it wouldn't truly be instant travel because you (as the time traveler) wouldn't feel as if no time had passed (and indeed, you would have aged slightly). But as far as the other party is concerned, it would certainly seem that you instantly arrived, yes.


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Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Starchild]
    #4156900 - 05/10/05 12:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

If you were asleep for 5 years, or whatever it takes, it would seem like that to you too, or perhapse in combination with some kind of hibernation technology as shown in 2001. If we trully had technology to travel through time, we would probably by that time have some sort of hybernation technology too


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Starchild]
    #4156915 - 05/10/05 12:06 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

But who could guarantee that everyone would abide by the rules? Mistakes, bad judgement, greed, curiosity, etc. would ensure that the rule would be broken.

By "rule" he did not mean a human-created human-enforced rule, but a law of physics which cannot be broken.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: Time Travel [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4156917 - 05/10/05 12:07 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Good point. I believe that hibernation technology will go hand in hand with time travel and travel to the stars, because to travel great distances it WILL take years in transit...


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: Time Travel [Re: trendal]
    #4156924 - 05/10/05 12:10 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

If you make the rule that you can only travel as far back in time as the invention of the time machine, then there is no paradox.




Quote:

trendal said:

By "rule" he did not mean a human-created human-enforced rule, but a law of physics which cannot be broken.




In that case, how can you "create" a law of physics?  :confused:


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

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Offlinegnrm23
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time dilation equation [Re: Starchild]
    #4156929 - 05/10/05 12:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Starchild]
    #4156930 - 05/10/05 12:15 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I think you've missed the point :smirk:

We are talking about hypothetical theories, and seuss said that if you include a law in your theory which prevents time travel to the past BEFORE time travel is invented...then you do away with many of the ugly time-related paradoxes that come from travel to the past.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinegnrm23
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when v=c, tau = zero [Re: gnrm23]
    #4156934 - 05/10/05 12:16 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: when v=c, tau = zero [Re: gnrm23]
    #4156962 - 05/10/05 12:28 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

gnrm23:

That book looks great, thanks for finding that. I'm sorry but I don't have time to read about the Lorentz Transformations right now...can you summarize the idea quickly?

Trendal:

I think I see what you are saying now, but I still don't know how you could just make it part of a theory that traveling to a point in time before time travel was invented is impossible, and then make it true in the phsyical world. If I'm still missing the point then I think you'll have to start from the beginning, sorry.


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Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: when v=c, tau = zero [Re: Starchild]
    #4156969 - 05/10/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well you can't simply say a "theory" is the way reality works.

The Theory of Relativity, for example. It may have enormous predictive power and describe natural events to our current satisfaction...but you should not fall into the illusion that the Theory of Relativity is "reality". It is only a model we have created to explain the way things work, nothing more.

So if we are creating theories about time-travel, we should avoid the assumption that our theories are "reality". Theories are tools used to describe reality.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleStarchild
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Re: [Re: trendal]
    #4156989 - 05/10/05 12:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

OK, now I really see what you're saying. And now that we have semantics out of the way...I don't think it would be POSSIBLE in "reality" (I'm talking about the actual reality we live and breathe in every day) to limit the distance that one can travel back and forth through time (that is assuming that either is even possible at all). Think about it, is there any way someone can limit your movement in the physical world? There are no boundaries. I believe time would operate the same way.


--------------------
Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

-Mahatma Gandhi


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Time Travel [Re: Starchild]
    #4157015 - 05/10/05 12:43 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

ummmmm... little math reality check here:
at 270,000 kps (90% lightspeed) the time dilation factor is about 2.2 (shipboard clocks would seem to be running just under half the speed of clocks "at rest", OK?)

for interesting Tau effects (as well as red- & blue-shifting  that would indeed generate a "starbow"),  velocities 0.999 C or better are suggested...



~

constant V, constant A...
(big if here, folks): IF human physicists could find a way to accelerate constantly (& not run out of fuel!) up to a desired speed, skew-flip when halfway "there" & decelerate until arrival...
we would find that the moon is hours away, the inner planets are days away, and pluto & the oort & dekuyper belts are weeks or months away at most...
as well, after a year of non-stop boosting at 1 G,your ship would be at well over 0.9 C... & well on the way - to somewhere...

now, do we have a tech that will let us boost nonstop for years at 1G? nope...
howabout 0.1G? nope...
well, 0.01G? ummmmm, maybe, on the drawing boards (but there's still that pesky fuel problem...)
how about 0.001G? we may indeed have the technology for this one (but the initial $$$ is quite daunting for a nation that can't find the money to educate its children or repair its roads... and as for the "world government" (hah!) finding a way cough up $US 10 billion for the next 25 years - it ain't gonna happen)...
how about 0.001G? it's there, it's free, and we do indeed have (or can develop reasonably quickly) the technology, and no fuel needed to propel the vessel (once it is in place (geo-synch docking at topside of quito skyhook, maybe?)--- project solar sail... and at 1/1000G pluto is still only about a year or two away...

(of course, once somebody is willing to make the initial investment to "open up the solar sytem to exploitation" the inital investment will seem like chump change :wink: ...
and heavy mining & smelting & manufacturing & power generation (& much more) will be done in leo, hi-orbit, or deepspace (insystem, not extrasolar) & earth will have the opportunity to become a garden planet... for a people with vision...

LET'S GO!!!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: [Re: Starchild]
    #4157021 - 05/10/05 12:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well I think the idea is that it would only be possible to travel BACKWARDS from one time-machine to another time-machine. Meaning you need to have something waiting for you IN the past to bring you there.

If that were true, then you could not travel back further than the first time machine, as before that there was nothing to travel back to.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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