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OfflineMighty Bop
Big Boy

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1,920
Loc: Nowhere
Last seen: 7 months, 21 days
Biological Warfare
    #404252 - 09/26/01 12:09 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Man this is scary....

"The World Health Organization has warned Western governments to be alert and prepared for possible attacks by biological or chemical weapons, executive director David Nabarro said on Tuesday.

Nabarro, a Briton who is the second most senior official in the organization, told British media it was essential that the threat of a mass attack on a Western population not be underestimated.

He said the WHO was trying to ensure governments had the latest information about the kind of agents that could be used in an attack and how they could combat any mass infection.

``It might be anthrax or botulism -- the toxin that comes from a bacterium and causes paralysis -- or possibly smallpox,'' Nabarro told BBC radio.

``Although this is a pretty frightful scenario, there is some suggestion that smallpox could be used. That's the sort of family of agents concerned.''

When asked how well protected Britain would be, Nabarro said ``my blunt reply is I don't know.''

``What I am pretty certain of is there are people in the UK who are looking at it pretty hard right now, and I suspect there is a lot more preparedness than most people would realize.''

Last week public health officials said Britain was reviewing national contingency plans for dealing with biological attack.

Dr. Nigel Lightfoot of the Public Health Laboratory Service (PHLS) said that while the risk of a biological or chemical attack was low, authorities were re-examining contingency measures, code-named Exercise Misty Scene, drawn up after sarin gas was released on Tokyo's subway system in 1995.

The WHO's Nabarro said he did not know how easy it would be to mount a large-scale attack on a Western population.

``Because we don't know enough about what's involved in using these agents effectively to cause harm, we are suggesting people take the risks seriously and recognize that it might be much easier than the use of other forms of potential terrorist weapons,'' he told the BBC.

``Under these circumstances, it would be imprudent not to be thinking at least and planning as hard as possible,'' Nabarro said.

A study by doctors at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in the United States published last year suggested that at least 10 nations had a biological weapons capacity.

Nabarro said the threat of biological warfare had rung alarm bells with the American public, especially after reports that crop-dusting aircraft could be used.

Britons have also become nervous, with reports of greatly increased sales of gas masks and protective clothing."

from Yahoo 9/25/01

I think I may go get a gas mask..........





--------------------
"One attaineth whatever state of being one thinketh about at the last when relinquishing the body, being ever absorbed in the thought thereof." - Sri Krishna to Arjuna, Bhagavad Gita, viii, 6


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Offlinemadscientist
journeyman
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 110
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #404644 - 09/26/01 10:57 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I think the threat posed by anti-human biological weapons is greatly exagerated. Consider what might be used

1: Anthrax. You need to produce a large quantity of spores for ariel distribution. This will need quite an advanced lab costing a large amount of money and demanding a lot of expertise. Easy to vaccinate against.
2: Botulinum toxin: same problems as above although in this case you cant vaccinate. Im not sure but I dont think that spores contain the actual toxin. Also C. botulinum is anearobic and an oxygen rich place like the human lung will be too toxic for these bugs. The purified toxin would be ludicrously expensive to produce, can vaccinate or keep large quantities of anti-toxin.
3: Small pox. Easy to vaccinate against. Only exists now as preseved cultures in 2 locations in the entire world. Highly unlikely.

Add to this the fact that anyone using biological weapons will be condemned by history and the fact that such a person would summararily be nuked and its not really likely. I seriously wouldnt be overly worried folks.

Agricultural biological weapons such as foot and mouth, barley or tobacco mosaic virus etc... are far more likely candidates. The recent outbreak of foot and mouth in the UK may in fact have been a bioweapons attack. But personally I think it was a south african who stepped in some cow shit on his way to the airport.........................

Be worried about chemical weapons though. Be worried. Be very worried.

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......

Edited by madscientist on 09/26/01 10:03 AM.



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Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: madscientist]
    #404658 - 09/26/01 11:25 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Fearing any of these "proposed" attacks is crazy. I tend to agree with you that it's not likely that we will be attacked but the possibility is always there....hell the possibility that a comet will knock you off of your bike at 2:00 am is just as threatening. Chemical weapons is quite another story. Unless you've been taking your anti-nerve agent pills like we did in Saudi you have a lot to worry about...unless you walk around all day with a chemical mask and atripine(sp) injectors. Nerve agents are pretty scary..what people don't realize is even with that mask your toast because you also need a chemical suit and the average person doesn't have a military grade chemical suit.

I will continue to live my life the exact way that i have always done because living life with fear is no life to live in my opinion.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

i don't know why, but that struck me as i was thinking of living in fear

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Innvertigo]
    #404677 - 09/26/01 11:48 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, Innvertigo and I agree on something... see, we do have a bit of common ground.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you get confused just listen to the music play


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InvisibleLenore
enthusiast
Registered: 01/31/00
Posts: 366
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: ]
    #404809 - 09/26/01 02:27 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

yes biological warfare is a bit far fetched for a terrorist group to undertake, however chemical warfare?
dump a moderate ammount of any nasty chemical into a water supply, infiltrate your way into a skyscraper and let some nasty shit go into the air conditioning system, ect.....

consider the havoc possible if terrorist got thier hands on any peice of nuclear material?

That's an interesting theory about foot and mouth, and as you point out the Mosaic virus' if introduced into large scale agro regions could wreak havoc. but this does not seem to interest terrorist, it would seem their main goal is to kill humans in mass violent distrubing ways.

If i were to put my money on what the next sort of attack could be I would presume some sort of suicide bomber, or gunmen(s) taking a cue from our home grown teenage high school terrorist. just go into any crowded city with an automatic and you could kill dozens in seconds.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Lenore]
    #404832 - 09/26/01 02:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Just dozens?

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinemadscientist
journeyman
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 110
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Innvertigo]
    #405601 - 09/27/01 12:52 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Also, while most gas masks have filters small enough to stop a bacteria from getting through this is not the case with chemicals. The masks are fitted with filters that use activated charcoal and so on and only last for around 8hrs. (if I remember my CCF tranining correctly).

So dont bother really.

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


--------------------
Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: madscientist]
    #407370 - 09/28/01 11:27 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I am not an expert. But when you are making biological weapon, you will use the viruses, and you have to have antiagent. When you make that by bioengineerinig, the it starts to be a problem.
And bad thing is that this thing is not hard to imagine, considering todays science.

So, I would be a very very worried about biological wheapon, because it could suck pretty much.


afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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Invisibledurban_poison
myco contractor
Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 2,415
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #408362 - 09/29/01 03:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

People here seem to be forgetting that iraq and afganistan and pretty much every country in that area has been producing biological warfare agents for a while. Afganistan used anthrax during the russian invasion. Anthrax is very simple to make also. All they need is a livestock farm and from there they can get there cultures going. There is also a strain of anthrax floating around in that area from the Soviet Union that is immune to extreme temperatures therefore they can use explosives and distribute it more effectivly in the atmosphere.



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OfflineElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #408718 - 09/30/01 01:10 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

"3: Small pox. Easy to vaccinate against. Only exists now as preseved cultures in 2 locations in the entire world. Highly unlikely. "

Not so sure I agree with this... Since smallpox is not found in the populace anymore, there are very few vaccine supplies around. How long would it take to round them up and to distrubute them if an attack were released? Wouldn't
thousands die before folks could be vaccinated?



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Offlinemadscientist
journeyman
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 110
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Crobih]
    #409011 - 09/30/01 07:50 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

By 'bioengineering' I assume you mean genetic engineering. Yes, you could make a super-pathogen using genetic engineering but the thing is that a project like this would take many millions of dollars, many years and many highly trained proffesional scientists. In addition, thier are a limited number of companies suppllying the neccesary reagents and specialised equiptment thus it would be easy to keep tabs on. i.e. the intelligence agencies might be a bit suspicious if $100,000 of biotech stuff went the way of Kabul all of a sudden!

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


--------------------
Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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Offlinemadscientist
journeyman
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 110
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Crobih]
    #409012 - 09/30/01 07:53 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

>
> From the Global Edition of the Financial Times (London)
> 28 September, 2001
> By Henry I. Miller
>
> Biological weapons have an apocalyptic reputation. But they are often ineffective in spreading disease, says Henry Miller
>
> Anthrax. Bubonic plague. Smallpox. These sinister names have appeared with increasing frequency this week as fears grow of a biological weapons attack by terrorist groups.
>
> Whether true or not, reports that the organisation of Osama bin Laden may have been plotting to use crop-duster aircraft to spread such micro-organisms constitute a wake-up call. They suggest that lo>
> But it is vital not to exaggerate the power of such weapons. Although bacteria and other micro-organisms can sicken or even kill an individual, their ability to spread and cause "secondary" cases is > During the past 50 years, university and government laboratories working with infectious agents that cause diseases such as anthrax and bubonic plague have, unintentionally, performed what amounts to>
> The consequences of these incidents are revealing and somewhat reassuring. The US Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, which tracks such incidents, recorded 109 laboratory-associated infections du>
> It is also instructive to look at the occurrence of anthrax in industrial settings. Historically, workers involved with certain animal products were at the highest risk but only 18 cases of inhalatio>
> As a public health threat, most biological agents act much like a toxic chemical such as the sarin released in the Tokyo subway by terrorists, with injury limited primarily to those exposed initially>
> Even so, micro-organisms do pose risks. Certain viruses, such as influenza and rhinoviruses, are highly contagious and cannot be treated with antibiotics. However, they are seldom life-threatening. I>
> There are certain precautions that should be taken now to prepare for incidents with biological agents. First, law enforcement, military and intelligence agencies must expand their intelligence-gathe> Second, local police and paramedics should be trained to consider the possibility of biological weapons in incidents where large numbers of people suddenly become ill. Such incidents require behaviou>
> Third, healthcare facilities must have emergency plans in place for the sudden presentation of large numbers of contaminated individuals. These plans must include rapid recognition of the incident, s>
> Finally, police departments and public health authorities need to stockpile protective clothing, designate laboratories for rapid diagnosis, formulate a procedure for notifying hospitals and transpor> Much of what is needed to combat biological terrorism is the same as that required to deal with the outbreak of natural disease, such as Legionnaire's disease, high-virulence influenza and E. coli in>
> The prospect of exposure to biological weapons should elicit not hysteria but vigilance and planning. As Louis Pasteur, father of bacteriology, said: "Chance favours only the prepared mind."
>
> Dr Miller is a molecular biologist and a fellow at the Hoover Institution. He is a former official of the US National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


--------------------
Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: madscientist]
    #409015 - 09/30/01 08:13 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Well madscientist, every biological institute has enough equipment for such things, and if somebody was PREPARING for the war, it would not be the big problem for him. Its MHO.


afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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Offlinemadscientist
journeyman
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 110
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: ElPrimo]
    #409890 - 10/01/01 07:41 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

About the smallpox vaccine: The vaccine is the vaccinia virus.
Otherwise known as cowpox, it was the first ever vaccine and as you might have guessed, gave its name to vaccination.
I dont really know how easy it is to grow up but there are lots of cultures acroos he world. I dont think there will be a problem with its use except in immunocompromised individuals.

But once again, smallpox is pretty hard to come by these days!

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


--------------------
Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemadscientist
journeyman
Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 110
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: durban_poison]
    #409891 - 10/01/01 07:49 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Hey there, Anthrax is easy to culture but to produce a large amount of air-distributable spores is not so easy. Are you sure the Afgans used it on thier own home turf? this would strike me as very silly beacuse once an area is contaminated with anthrax spores its pretty much impossible to decontaminate it. Thus, anthrax is good to use on your enemy's homeland but not in defence of your own homeland.

>There is also a strain of anthrax floating around in that area >from the Soviet Union that is immune to extreme >temperatures therefore they can use explosives and >distribute it more effectivly in the atmosphere.

Most bacterial spores are bloody tough anyway. This is why you have to pressure cook the shit out of your shrooms media before you inoculate.

Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


--------------------
Instead of the dove as the symbol of peace we should have a pillow. Its got more feathers but doesnt have that nasty sharp beak......


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: madscientist]
    #409987 - 10/01/01 11:23 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

If memory serves me right Iraq used anthrax on the Kurds (which is inside their own country). You have to also realize it doesn't seem impossible to believe that these people would use them in their own land because they don't really give a shit about anybody but themselves.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Innvertigo]
    #410007 - 10/01/01 12:09 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

innvertigo. ... you should have another model for understanding others. Not yourself.......

afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Crobih]
    #410027 - 10/01/01 12:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

wow...i'm impressed...should i use you as a model?....because i could learn sooooo much.

If you want to add substance to this conversation feel free...if not then go away.

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,478
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Innvertigo]
    #410049 - 10/01/01 01:24 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

In California we have something called the Aquaduct System. Its a aseries of canals that stretched from North California Mountians bringing water all the way through the desert to Mexico. The Aquiduct is the lifeline of California and supplys Los Angeles with 75% of its drinking water and all of its agricultural water (other than rainfall of corse).
Near SanFrancisco their is a scale modle made to simulate what would happen if deadly bacteria were to get into the system at any point and let me tell you if undetected it would have horrible consiquences and could wipe out more than 25 Million People.

As for air distribution, well small plains are easy to fly and comercial pump sprayers are available everywhere and home made crop dusters are easy to make. With this its proven that terrorists can wipe out millions in any major city with a varriety of biological weapons.

GabbaDj

Ok... Just to set the record straight....
I thought the cop was a prostitute.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
Re: Biological Warfare [Re: Innvertigo]
    #410198 - 10/01/01 05:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I expressed my self wrong... oyu should use more models...... and I am only one exception.

afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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