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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857920 -

Hmm, well I suppose restricting contact a lot, but not entirely would be effective at demoralizing people. And that would seem to be the main purpose of prison. Makes sense...I suppose restricting human contact, although certainly not to any extreme, would be a good thing.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857923 -

Quote:
I didn't say ZERO human contact...just, at the very least, EXTREMELY RESTRICTED human contact, especially contact with other prisoners. Prisoners would still have daily contact with guards, would still be permitted to have visitors, and would all have access to a psychologist to speak with.




you've just defined solitary confinement as it currently is, besides the visitors part (visitors for those on solitary confinement are only allowed once a month - usually depending on the warden).

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Gijith]
    #3857930 -

Gijith said:
I haven't really read anything about this yet. Which state(s) was this actually legal in before the ruling?



Well if the minor was tried as an adult, then AFAIK, the death penalty would be an option.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Gijith]
    #3857938 -

Killing people is wrong. When will we listen to K-Pax.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3857963 -

dblaney18 said:
They haven't been in charge since around WWII, I would be rather surprised if they are still upset about that.



I dunno. They sure do seem pretty bitter towards America.

Quote:
Most European, or at least many, countries are very progressive and have a much higher quality of life than in the States.



Debatable. Sure, they have government using their tax dollars to give them medical care, but here, I have a much lower tax burden, and can decide for myself what I want to spend all that money on. I've travelled much of the European continent, and while I've seen some awesome castles, the beautiful Swiss alps, the Amsterdam cafes, and much more, I still say there's no place like home.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3857973 -

zahudulallah said:
When will we listen to K-Pax.



When he visits the White House probably.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Vvellum]
    #3858004 -

Well I think you're missing some of what I'm saying here, bio :wink:

Note that I said something along the lines of "let them suffer"? That's because I think people who commit murder SHOULD suffer. Death is an escape from their imprisonment, and I personally think they deserve their imprisonment.

Now as for "solitary confinement"...I've seen (and been in) the rooms they put people in for solitary confinement. You are right, that is "cruel" treatment. My idea is more along the same lines as cells are now: windows, lights, a bed, ect. Not a stone floor in a room you can barely pace around in. The prisoners would not be beaten or harmed physically in any manner. Psychological torture (aside from the confinement itself) would also be completely prohibited.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Silversoul]
    #3858058 -

If someone is trying to kill me, and I kill them in self-defense, that is not murder. Nor is execution. It is a response to the initiation of force by the other person.

You can't compare self-defense in a life-threatening situation (as it's happening mind you) to capital punishment. That's one hell of a delayed reaction to initiation of force. Therefore it's not anything close to actual self-defense. No one is defending themselves when they execute a prisoner on death row. In this case, the executioner is initiating force against the prisoner.

Legally, yes, he would be guilty of murder, but that is because the state, by its very nature, requires a monopoly of force. That person has interfered in that monopoly.

Yes I see that, but that monopolized force doesn't have to include the right to execute. What you're saying is like, the government can only kill him because only the government can kill him. Say what? If he was going to die and someone else did it, what is the difference between a random citizen and a prison executioner. They'd both be murderers, whoever went through with it. BTW I understand the "right" to kill in a war situation but this is entirely different.

The only justification for capital punishment that I see is your third response, which makes sense, but then why wouldn't ALL murderes be executed if they want to save money? Another inconsistency.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3858089 -

Quote:
Well I think you're missing some of what I'm saying here, bio



...only because you havent fully explained yourself.

Quote:
Now as for "solitary confinement"...I've seen (and been in) the rooms they put people in for solitary confinement. You are right, that is "cruel" treatment. My idea is more along the same lines as cells are now: windows, lights, a bed, ect. Not a stone floor in a room you can barely pace around in. The prisoners would not be beaten or harmed physically in any manner. Psychological torture (aside from the confinement itself) would also be completely prohibited.



...and you've just explained maximum security prison facilities as they exist in America. Do you really think ALL (as you said) prisoners should be locked up in max. security? Why? Seems the punishment and sentencing should be determined by the crime. If I get charged with tax evasion, why should I be locked away in maximum security just the same as all the murderers and rapists? Punishment should fit the crime, and different types of prisons provide this.

Who is going to pay for all this?

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Silversoul]
    #3858111 -

Paradigm said:
No shit? Well I consider most European countries to be full of socialist assholes who are bitter over the fact that we're in charge now and they're not.



Are you talking about the citizens? As if the citizens have power or something? The hierachy is at its highest in parts of Europe and all world power is dictated from there there. The American GOVERNMENT is the puppet controller. To me it sounds like you're talking about the people as if they are the ones with the power?

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Vvellum]
    #3858129 -

...and you've just explained maximum security prison facilities as they exist in America.

Except the prisoners are able to interact with eachother on a daily basis, aren't they?

Do you really think ALL (as you said) prisoners should be locked up in max. security? Why?

Um...no. We're talking about murderer's here, aren't we?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: faslimy]
    #3858140 -


The hierachy is at its highest in parts of Europe and all world power is dictated from there there. The American GOVERNMENT is the puppet controller.

If the American government is the puppet controller, why couldn't the Bush administration get France and Germany to support to Iraq invasion and occupation?

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3858159 -

Quote:
Except the prisoners are able to interact with eachother on a daily basis, aren't they?



Not in maximum or super-max security. What you described is pretty much maximum/super-max.

Quote:
Um...no. We're talking about murderer's here, aren't we?



you said: Personally, I think that ALL jail time should be served as 100% solitary confinement.

If you were only speaking of murderers, you should have clarified that. Considering that you didnt, and that you ranted about prisoners have good food and great television, you didnt seem to be speaking of just murderers - simply the entire prison population (murderers are usually put into max. security where such things hardly exist).

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Vvellum]
    #3858195 -

Not in maximum or super-max security. What you described is pretty much maximum/super-max.

Then I guess all murderers should be held in "super-max" style prisons.

If you were only speaking of murderers, you should have clarified that.

Dude, the WHOLE THREAD has been about murderers and capital punishment. Why would I be talking about anyone else?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3858250 -

Quote:
Then I guess all murderers should be held in "super-max" style prisons.



Cool. They usually are. So chill.

Quote:
Dude, the WHOLE THREAD has been about murderers and capital punishment. Why would I be talking about anyone else?



ever heard of off-topic posting? Seemed as if you were ranting about prison and punishment in general. As I explained, it seemed as if you were talking about ALL prisoners, and I believe that was your intention. But whatever...  :santaclaus:

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: moog]
    #3858640 -

moog said:
1) Say a person found guilty of heinous murder is executed. The person who then executes the murderer is a murderer himself (someone has to give the injection or flip the switch). How is the executioner not then guilty of murder? Because the person executed is a criminal and has no rights, it's okay? But the executioner has also just committed murder. Is this okay because it's government sanctioned? How does that work? Some murder is okay and some isn't? This is logically inconsistent.




No, it's just not the same. You are questioning semantics here and that avoids the issue, but I'll address it anyway because later on you do address the actual issue. If a person is deprive of life through due process of law, the action of one entity taking the life from another is still occuring, but it is not "murder". The definition of the word "murder" is different from the word "execution".
Quote:
Consider a related case: a person is condemned to execution and is on death row. In the meantime someone not working for the government or the prison (a random private citizen) kills the guy before his day arrives. Is he then guilty of murder, even though someone else was going to kill the guy on death row anyway? I'm not sure of the law in such an unlikely case but I'm willing to bet "yes." Possibly another logical inconsistency, but maybe someone can clear that one up.




Thats actually a very good question. Yes, it would be murder. The state has declared that the executee's life is forfeit, but the execution must be done under certain guidelines.
Quote:
2) The other thing is, there seems to be no point in capital punishment other than doing it "because we can." What's the difference between someone being executed within a few months of the criminal trial, or serving a life sentence (or more) and dying later on from something else? Either way the guy is going to die. As long as the prison has high enough security, there's no way he's going to kill someone, not even other inmates. Die now or die later? It doesn't make any difference.




If we put a murderer in jail, he could be paroled by cowardly Dukakis-style parole boards or govenrment, he could escape, he could kill a guard or another inmate. Basically, the threat created by the individual is not dealt with. He still remains a threat, though a threat that is controlled to some degree. If the man is electrocuted, he certainly won't be killing any other people. Also, society demands justice for a crime against other humans. Personally I'd rather die than spend the rest of my life in jail. It's also costly to keep an inmate guarded, fed, warm, clothed and medically treated for the rest of his life. It's not that expensive to just give him the rope.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Phred]
    #3860132 -

Their purpose is to determine whether laws passed by the legislature are constitutional or unconstitutional.

While I do agree that what they have done is unconstitutional - it should be a state matter - I don't believe this was their original purpose. In reality, they manuevered themselves to be the final arbiters in matters pertaining to constitutionality in Marbury vs. Madison. They weren't expressly granted this power in the Constitution.

Though this assumption of power could have been another check on the balance of power, it seems some of the Justices can't be trusted to keep personnel beliefs out of their opinions on law. Not to say some of these opinions didn't work out for the best, but we're now seeing the downside of an out of touch judiciary.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3861309 -

Quote:
Statistics are here too, of course. It costs about as much to execute a person as it does to keep them in prison for 50 years or so



where are these stats? I hear this mentioned all the time but have yet to see these stats.

Quote:
As a proponent of individual autonomy, I don't believe that anyone's life ought to be taken from them without their permission. The issue of the death penalty is controversial, and most people tend to stick to their opinions.




I am a proponent of individual autonomy (double negative?) until that autonomous person decides to remove someone elses autonomy by murdering them. No compassion for those people.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3861320 -

Quote:
Personally, I think that ALL jail time should be served as 100% solitary confinement.



I'd prefer them to do something to contribute to society.

Quote:
No torture or anything like that. However I certainly don't see the need to give someone convicted of murder any perks such as good food, cable TV, workout equipment, ect.
Quote:
I agree

Quote:
I think they should be in a cell 24 hours a day aside from showers. Mainly, I think that communication and interaction between prisoners should be SEVERELY restricted or, better yet, prohibited entirely. The prisoner should not interact with anyone other than his guards, lawyer, possibly visitors, and as well he should be given some access to a criminal psychologist for help with rehabilitation.[/



If they were to go to this, I would be in favor of it over capital punishment, the odds of this is 1 in a million that this will ever happen


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3861450 -

Auto-Summary
Texas faced the excusal of over 20 individuals from Death Row due to issues with the state's capital punishment laws. George W. Bush, as the governor of Texas, has been criticized for his opposition to changes in clemency procedures and his support for the death penalty, even for individuals with low IQs. During his tenure, Texas executed 152 people, making Bush the most-killing governor in U.S. history. The state also ranks last in social services while leading in executions, despite having poor-funded programs for the mentally ill and opposition to life without parole for those with low IQs. Critics argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent and can lead to the execution of innocent individuals, with the cost of executing someone being higher than housing them for life. The author suggests eliminating the death penalty and keeping offenders in prison for life, emphasizing the importance of practicality over vengeance.

Texas recently had to excuse 20+ kids from Death Row because of this. :http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistor...opolitan/306403

and i find Texas to be the funniest and most important case about our capital punishment laws in this country.. ya know since they are "the leader" and all when it comes to zapping people.

Capital punishment in Texas is horrendous, it didn't get much better when Bush was governor there either.

Quoted from elsewhere:
The reeling Bush 2000 campaign pulled out all the stops to show that Shrub is not only a true leader of men, but a warm soul. ``He's had to sit in the chair,'' cried Gov. Carroll Campbell of South Carolina, whose state faced a Feb. 19 primary that was touted as crucial for Bush. ``He's had to make life-and-death decisions.'' ``He has a human touch, a personal touch that most candidates don't have,'' an aide whispered to the New York Times. But it was hard to reinvent W. at that late hour, when most Americans access his warmth through bulletins of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, announcing executions in the months ahead.

It must be said that George W. Bush is not responsible for the increased pace of executions that occured in TX, nor did he create Texas' arcane clemency procedures. But it cannot be denied that Bush has steadfastly opposed changing the clemency procedures in the face of stinging criticism by the courts.

Bush has even opposed simple safeguards like holding open meetings. The Texas governor has vetoed legislation which would have provided funding for basic indigent defense. He called that bill, which had bipartisan support, "a threat to public safety." Bush also opposed legislation instituting life without parole and banning the execution of people with IQ's less than 65. In general, he has been a leading spokesperson in favor of the death penalty. Even when it came to killing retarded people.

As of 7:30pm EDT, December 7, 2000, 152 people have been executed during Bush's tenure as governor. This makes Texas Gov Bush the most-killing Governor, in the history of the United States of America.

Under the leadership of. Bush, TX continued to rank dead last in virtually every social service area, yet first in executions. Texas has some of the poorest funded programs to help the mentally ill (who account for a good number of the prison population). Bush's response to this dead last ranking was to insist that the legislature pass a $5 billion tax cut. And as much as I hate taxes, I think someone's priorities are fucked up.

What I find hilarious is that the majority who supports capital punishment is the religious right. And somehow I don't think this is what Jesus would do. The New Testament undid a lot of the violence the Old Testament required. Instead of a a vengeful and pissed off god, we were taught to learn forgiveness. And Bush, as Governor, opposed protection for, not the lame "insanity plea" cases, but for literal mental deficients. But it's not like his hypocrisy between religion and political opinion isn't well known. Hell most of America is like this. And again, I don't get it.

Whenever we hear about the futility of the death penalty from the liberal oracles of neo-modernism, they always conclude by saying that capital punishment has been around for a long time but has not stopped people from committing murder. A common tactic of liberals is to use every dilatory tactic available to keep a law from being enforced, after which they will characterize the law as ineffective because it ?doesn?t work.?

But the fact is, the death penalty never has and never will act as a deterent. In fact, you'll find that in places such as Texas when the capital punishment rate increases, the murder rate quickly follows suit. I'm not going to try to draw a definite conclusion here but it could have something to do with the fact that it's a sociological stamp of approval thtn killing actually solves something.

But my tax dollars!!! Yeah yeah. Guess what? It costs far more to execute an individual than to house them and feed them. With the trial after trial, appeal after appeal, the 10+ years that person sits on death row.. you've chewed up more money than what it would've cost to keep them there for 30. And what happens if you simplify and disassemble the current system we have. What if you take away all these safe guards? The chance that more innocent people get convicted and die because they were wrongly accused of a crime. Even in this day and age of DNA testing, it still happens.

Sure murderers, rapists, child molestors.. they all deserve to die in my opinion. But I think the rest of their life in prison would be far more torture. Especially if prisons were how they should be. Lets rip out the televisions and radios. Take away their damned computer access. If they want books, fine. But let people donate them. Not on my dollar. Take away their exercise equipment. They can do pushups and situps if they feel the need to workout. I've been to a prison. It had a better gym than what i can afford. That's bullshit. My suggestion, quit wasting tax dollars on their luxuries. Get rid of the death penalty. And lets keep them there for life. If you raped ONCE, molested a child ONCE, or murdered ONCE, you belong as a ward of the state as far as I?m concerned.

I mean what sounds better? Lowering the funds to the prison system by gutting luxuries, saving money by housing them rather than killing them, and you don?t put a stamp of approval on killing someone. Or do you like the idea of spending more money to see someone die, with the possibility that my little theory that capital punishment actually elevates an sociological atmosphere of hostility. I get vengeful too. I get pissed. The stupid fucks are living on my dollar because they couldn?t abide by the law and ended up severely damaging or ending someone else?s life. But practicality, in my opinion, is a better approach rather than allowing your emotions get the best of you.

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