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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies, Injection Grain Bag   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3857672 -

I see absolutly nothing wrong with capital punishment

What if they execute the wrong person?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857677 -

what if they don't?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857693 -

I think the only way i'd be for something other than capital punishment would be if criminals in Jail were actually made to contribute something to society. I'm not sure exactly what they could do vs. the risk of them escaping but they should be made to work and not just work out and get stronger and meaner in prison. prison is supposed to suck, i'd like to see it suck more before I do away with capital punishment.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857706 -

trendal said:
I see absolutly nothing wrong with capital punishment

What if they execute the wrong person?


This is the reason why I'm against capital punishment in most cases. But suppose we capture Bin Laden, or some other high-profile international terrorist. What do you suppose are the chances we'd have the wrong guy? What if we took a DNA sample?


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Silversoul]
    #3857793 -

Even with DNA evidence, the chances for a mistake are VERY real. I tend to err on the side of caution, so I think that the risk of executing even ONE innocent person outweighs any benefits of executing actual murderers and such.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857803 -

With regular murderers, I agree. But what about war criminals? High-profile international terrorists, and the like? I don't think there's much chance of mistaken identity in those cases.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3857814 -

Hmmm, here are the problems I see with it...

1) Say a person found guilty of heinous murder is executed. The person who then executes the murderer is a murderer himself (someone has to give the injection or flip the switch). How is the executioner not then guilty of murder? Because the person executed is a criminal and has no rights, it's okay? But the executioner has also just committed murder. Is this okay because it's government sanctioned? How does that work? Some murder is okay and some isn't? This is logically inconsistent.

Consider a related case: a person is condemned to execution and is on death row. In the meantime someone not working for the government or the prison (a random private citizen) kills the guy before his day arrives. Is he then guilty of murder, even though someone else was going to kill the guy on death row anyway? I'm not sure of the law in such an unlikely case but I'm willing to bet "yes." Possibly another logical inconsistency, but maybe someone can clear that one up.

2) The other thing is, there seems to be no point in capital punishment other than doing it "because we can." What's the difference between someone being executed within a few months of the criminal trial, or serving a life sentence (or more) and dying later on from something else? Either way the guy is going to die. As long as the prison has high enough security, there's no way he's going to kill someone, not even other inmates. Die now or die later? It doesn't make any difference.

I also have moral objections to capital punishment, but since morality is subjective I won't argue with that. My point is these situations don't make any sense logically. If you can explain them, please do.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3857824 -

I think I see where you are coming from, but still, that doesn't justify taking someone's life, in my opinion. Everyone on this planet has a right to life, and no one ought to be able to take that away, no matter how heinous the crime. Prison is much worse than death. With death, you really don't have to worry much about your condition. With prison or even life in prison, you are doomed to a life surrounded by cold concrete walls, iron bars, assholes, small rooms, beatings, crappy food, and maybe an hour or two of sunlight per day if you're lucky.

Prison is no cakewalk and the vast majority of people who go in there come out a changed person. Well except Martha Stewart. As for Osama Bin Laden, do you think he'd prefer to live out the rest of his life in a small box with no light and no human contact, or just die? I would bet he would much rather just die.

Statistics are here too, of course. It costs about as much to execute a person as it does to keep them in prison for 50 years or so.

I think that even if the chance exists of executing an innocent person, then executions should not be allowed.

As a proponent of individual autonomy, I don't believe that anyone's life ought to be taken from them without their permission. The issue of the death penalty is controversial, and most people tend to stick to their opinions.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3857826 -

I personally think life in prison with no chance of parole is by far worse punishment and just as effective in preventing that criminal from further acts than the death penalty. Capital punishment is simply state-sanctioned revenge.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3857838 -

Oh, and most European countries consider the United States' practice of the death penalty particularly barbaric.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Vvellum]
    #3857843 -

bi0 said:
Capital punishment is simply state-sanctioned revenge.



--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3857845 -

Personally, I think that ALL jail time should be served as 100% solitary confinement. Nothing brutal, mind you. No torture or anything like that. However I certainly don't see the need to give someone convicted of murder any perks such as good food, cable TV, workout equipment, ect. I think they should be in a cell 24 hours a day aside from showers. Mainly, I think that communication and interaction between prisoners should be SEVERELY restricted or, better yet, prohibited entirely. The prisoner should not interact with anyone other than his guards, lawyer, possibly visitors, and as well he should be given some access to a criminal psychologist for help with rehabilitation.

People convicted of murder-1 should be locked in a cell and have the key thrown away. Death is too good of an escape.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857854 -

Solitary confinement could be considered cruel and unusual though: if devoid of human contact for a period of time, the risk of psychosis, schizo., and other mental disorders increases greatly.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: moog]
    #3857868 -

moog said:
1) Say a person found guilty of heinous murder is executed. The person who then executes the murderer is a murderer himself (someone has to give the injection or flip the switch). How is the executioner not then guilty of murder? Because the person executed is a criminal and has no rights, it's okay? But the executioner has also just committed murder. Is this okay because it's government sanctioned? How does that work? Some murder is okay and some isn't? This is logically inconsistent.


If someone is trying to kill me, and I kill them in self-defense, that is not murder. Nor is execution. It is a response to the initiation of force by the other person.

Quote:
Consider a related case: a person is condemned to execution and is on death row. In the meantime someone not working for the government or the prison (a random private citizen) kills the guy before his day arrives. Is he then guilty of murder, even though someone else was going to kill the guy on death row anyway? I'm not sure of the law in such an unlikely case but I'm willing to bet "yes." Possibly another logical inconsistency, but maybe someone can clear that one up.


Legally, yes, he would be guilty of murder, but that is because the state, by its very nature, requires a monopoly of force. That person has interfered in that monopoly.

Quote:
2) The other thing is, there seems to be no point in capital punishment other than doing it "because we can." What's the difference between someone being executed within a few months of the criminal trial, or serving a life sentence (or more) and dying later on from something else? Either way the guy is going to die. As long as the prison has high enough security, there's no way he's going to kill someone, not even other inmates. Die now or die later? It doesn't make any difference.


The longer we keep him alive, the longer we have to pay for his food, shelter, medical care, etc. While it's true that executions tend to be more expensive, many would rather pay for killing them than pay to keep them alive.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Silversoul]
    #3857869 -

Paradigm said:
With regular murderers, I agree. But what about war criminals? High-profile international terrorists, and the like? I don't think there's much chance of mistaken identity in those cases.


No, perhaps not mistaken identity...but there is still room for mistakes. In the case of OBL, it still has not been proven conclusively that he PERSONALLY ordered the attacks on, say, 9/11. While I certainly do think that he was behind it...how far do you trust your government with such information? How do you know, conclusively, that they are absolutely with out a doubt correct?

I don't think you can, and thus don't think that capital punishment is the solution.

Instead, throw the fucker in a cell with no windows and a solid door then let him rot for the rest of his natural life. Why would you want to cut his suffering short by ending his life? If he is such a bad person, LET HIM SUFFER!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: trendal]
    #3857875 -

how is a permanent solitary confinement not cruel and unusual punishment? how is not torture? A relative of mine is currently serving a 20 + year sentence in a federal max pen. He has been put into solitary for months at a time. He says you literally go insane from the isolation and you are never the same once you get out.

do you really think there is good food in prison? whatever.

yeah, they might have tv (hardly cable tv), but so what? do you really want thousands of inmates bored, angry, and looking for trouble?

Listen, prison as is is already tough enough. It is not easy...

I have no problems with GED or other educational programs, rehab programs, prison-work programs, minimal entertainment, and physical activity.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3857881 -

dblaney18 said:
Oh, and most European countries consider the United States' practice of the death penalty particularly barbaric.


No shit? Well I consider most European countries to be full of socialist assholes who are bitter over the fact that we're in charge now and they're not.


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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Silversoul]
    #3857899 -

They haven't been in charge since around WWII, I would be rather surprised if they are still upset about that.

Most European, or at least many, countries are very progressive and have a much higher quality of life than in the States.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: Vvellum]
    #3857908 -

dblaney18 said:
if devoid of human contact for a period of time, the risk of psychosis, schizo., and other mental disorders increases greatly.


trendal said:
The prisoner should not interact with anyone other than his guards, lawyer, possibly visitors, and as well he should be given some access to a criminal psychologist for help with rehabilitation.


I didn't say ZERO human contact...just, at the very least, EXTREMELY RESTRICTED human contact, especially contact with other prisoners. Prisoners would still have daily contact with guards, would still be permitted to have visitors, and would all have access to a psychologist to speak with.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Supreme Court Rules Against Executing Minors [Re: dblaney]
    #3857916 -

Getting back to the ruling, does anybody here support the idea of capital punishment for minors?

Personally, I can't understand how anyone would be a proponent of revenge killing for people who still ride the school bus every morning.

I haven't really read anything about this yet. Which state(s) was this actually legal in before the ruling?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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