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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Buddha1]
    #3766286 -

By the way, in his autobiography "Freedom in Exile" the Dalai Llama says he has little time and patience for successful acheivement of higher states through meditation, and he does not consider himself enlightened.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #3766544 -

Shroomism said:
buddhism is 'the way', psychadelics flow with, 'the way'.. it makes sense.


well, Tao means 'the way', but I don't think buddhism means that, or claims to be that... and as for psychedelics 'flowing with 'the way'', I just wonder if that has any actual meaning. perhaps you could explain that in some terms we all have in common.

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3766565 -

Buddhism has methods for working with ordinary states of concioussness not chemically altered ones. If you want methods for working with altered states of concioussness try some form of shamanism. I have never met a true buddhist teacher who suggests or even slightly advocates the use of such ethogens for spiritual advancement.

For me it becomes quite difficult to maintain awareness whilst intoxicated with any substance, and hence everytime i do i break my vows.  :frown:


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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Sinbad]
    #3766964 -

no buddhist teacher would officially advocate psychedellic
but several have joined in the fray joyously & helfully
distinction is important.

but what you do is what you do
you are an example to all


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3767370 -

truly knowing through experience, not merely understanding intellectually, that consciousness..like all things..is impermanent and transient is the greatest lesson provided by psychadelics.

it is not a lesson to be disregarded or taken lightly. buddhists of all people should know this.


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Subhuti, wheresoever are material characteristics there is delusion; but whoso perceives that all characteristics are in fact no-characteristics, perceives the Tathagata.


Edited by Tathagata (02/11/05 03:54 PM)

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Tathagata]
    #3767406 -

There is no need to take any substance to realize the impermenant nature of all phenomenon, as we are constantly reminded every moment of this fact in our internal and external worlds, it only requires observation and recognition, not any chemically altered state of concioussness.


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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Sinbad]
    #3767433 -

very true...it is not required.

many roads lead to the same destination.


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Subhuti, wheresoever are material characteristics there is delusion; but whoso perceives that all characteristics are in fact no-characteristics, perceives the Tathagata.


Edited by Tathagata (02/11/05 04:07 PM)

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Tathagata]
    #3767559 -

Unfortunatly their are many roads that lead away from that destination. Anything that has the capacity to considerably disturb or distract the mind from the presence of being can lead one away from their path if one is not careful. Dellusion comes in many guises.



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Edited by Sinbad (02/11/05 05:09 PM)

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4780632 -

Give me up to 7 hits of LSD and I guarantee that I can continue seeming normal for the rest of the day and claim it had no effect. It just takes attention to detail. The higher state of conciousness acheived through meditation is a different state than one reached with hallucinogens.

which higher state? aren't there many different levels of consciousness that can be experienced with hallucinogens?

True enlightenment does not exist.

can you elaborate? what is true enlightenment?

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #4797047 -

Drugs are a shortcut to spiritual enlightenment...

The key is to implement the changes you experience from your trips into your conciousness...

You have two minds, one mind, but two spheres of reality...

The ego/mortal/concious mind and the subconcious/god/all wise mind...

The ego, is like the chatterbox, constantly rambling away, while your deeper mind is intune with everything... When you take shrooms/lsd/cannabis your ego is silenced and you are opened up to new dimensions...

I believe, bill hicks, said it best:

Quote:
?I?d like to see just one positive drug story on the news, just once?One day a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves?...... here?s Tom with the weather.?


Edited by TheProphet (10/13/05 06:19 AM)

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: TheProphet]
    #4797056 -

Quote:
The secret to enlightenment is tuning into the signals that are always present, but are normally beyond our perception. We are like a radio, and our brain/mind is the tuning dial. Psychedelics are an antennae, allowing us to tune into signals that we never could before, as is meditaion and prayer. But for some this is not good enough. It may be that our true spiritual goal is to transform into a satalite dish capable of recieving even smaller and more distant signals and even to project those signals ourselves. And when we die, we will no longer be a machine sending and recieving signals, but we will become the signals themselves. We will become God!

I still smoke pot and drink, but don't let those urges control me. Now I don't care that much if I can get high or not, I will not go on perilous journeys for a bag anymore. But I still like to get high! LOL! Eventually I will give it all up. I just know I will. But I am young and in college, so... what else? This is fine for now. I first must understand what signals I can tune into now. When I am done I will move onto the next frequencies. I must realize that everything is always perfect. It must be this way so that it can lead to the next way that things will be. Although I hurt myself by abusing drugs I learn. I see how attachment to sensations and thoughts prevents me from maturing spiritually. The mushrooms can show you the way, but they are not the way itself. Your life is the way. You can walk it however you like, but to get to where you want to go, you've got to walk it right and enjoy every step and mistake.



Now THAT was very well said...

I dr0mni, I believe you are on the right track... I believe we are spiritual machines... I believe all matter in the universe shares one common goal... and lsd, and shrooms, helps tune you in, into the bigger picture and saves you lag time in life...

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: TheProphet]
    #4800699 -

the fifth precept is clearly against "intoxication"
my question though is what is meant? alcohol intoxication is rather useless except for socializing, and is often a catalyst for foolish and unwholesome and certainly unBuddhist behavior. There's some story where a monk may only stay with someone if he sacrificed a goat, slept with some girl, or drank alcohol, he decided drinking would be the least harmful, but lead him to do all three in his intoxication.

(paraphrased horribly!)

but see, that's the thing, alcohol impairment is not like the impairment of psychedelics, you may do foolish things while tripping but you aren't liable to be harmful and you will certainly be conscientous.... even so on marijuana usually.

plus cannabis, mushrooms, acid, peyote, they aren't toxic. You cannot be "intoxicated" and the translation I always see is "refrain from intoxicants."

however it is indeed obvious that regular use or even sparing use of any drug causes attachment, and is done out of desires..... and disrupts a clear mind... in that light then I understand why Buddhists do not advocate psychedelics.... but in the literal interpretation of "intoxicants" I'm not so sure.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: leery11]
    #4800996 -

what do you mean you aren't liable to be harmful? my friend punched someone in the face and broke his nose when tripping on mushrooms because he thought he "wasn't real". another one of my friends threw a great many objects at me when tripping on shrooms. i was trip sitting him and every time he'd pick something up he'd get this evil look in his eye and then chuck it at me. he also destroyed my lamp and alarm clock.

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #4801174 -

That sucks. People who trip just don't generally seem to do that kind of stuff to me, whereas alcohol specifically makes people prone to get into fights.

That post of mine kind of sucked but I was trying to figure out why they said "intoxicants" as there is nothing toxic about most entheogens... and alcohol in paritcular seems to be much more a problematic drug.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: leery11]
    #4801499 -

well i understand what you mean in the sense that it's obvious why buddhists would have a precept against intoxication with drugs like alcohol while it is so not so obvious why they'd be against psychedelics, especially because psychedelics lead so many people to become interested in buddhism. still i think they stress non drug methods for raising consciousness and there are several for it. for one meditation is safer as it reveals things to you at your own pace, drugs can show you things youre not ready to see and this isn't necessarily beneficial. ive read that the ego is never able to judge when it is ready for ego loss and ive experienced this myself. also, i think it is EXTREMELY difficult to use drugs and not become attatched. if you have a wonderful experience that is so far above your everyday awareness how can you not become attatched? there are other reasons they are against them as well that i won't get into here but i will say that i think drugs are most beneficial in the beginning, they serve as a catalyst that allows you to discover the spiritual side to life. they show you that there are other ways of being, other states of consciousness and they open your mind up to new possibilities. however once you already have a firm understanding of what you need to do to grow spiritually its probably better to attempt to do it without drugs. no drugs are necessary to realize enlightenment so why continue to distract yourself with them?

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Buddhism, Salvia & Ego Dissolution [Re: Buddha1]
    #7810914 -

Although I have been experimenting with entheogens for a considerable period of time, it wasn't until very recently that under the influence of an unimaginably powerful Salvia divinorum journey that I experienced complete ego dissolution and decided to seek the path to permanent enlightenment through the teachings of Buddha. In response to people's posts that no sort of intoxication is permitted within a Buddhist practice, is it not the intention of an action rather than the action itself which is important?  If cannabis is smoked with the pure intention of gaining insight about the nature of reality, versus smoking as a diversion or a way to get blasted, chill and gorge oneself in pleasures of the senses, it isn't wrong according to the doctrines. Even though in some people, smoking cannabis can increase the likelihood of transgressing into the temporary pleasures of samsara, those people who do overcome the increased desire induced by cannabis under its influence, in my view, have made great strides towards denying samsara and embracing enlightenment. I think even the Dalai Lama would agree with me, LSD or no :smile: But, I do think caution should be exercised in relying entirely on entheogens for spiritual advancement... as people have posted before, one can only go so far (especially as evidenced by those who've done LSD numerous times), whereas with diligent study and meditation, the possibilities are limitless until the point of enlightenment.... for example, after my life changing Salvia experience, strangely, it no longer "works" for me; my belief is that I have achieved everything the Shepherdess is capable of showing me; the rest is up to me


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~"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes" -Marcel Proust

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #7811294 -

Shroomism said:
buddhism is 'the way', psychadelics flow with, 'the way'.. it makes sense.


I disagree, Buddhism is part of 'The Way' (Tao), just like christianity, Judaism, and so on, and depending on an individual's path with Tao will lead/take them on different journeys.


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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7811511 -

A particular tenet of Buddhism is to acheive a permanent peace, not a temporary one. The Buddha's very teaching summed up in the Ye Dharma, translates as something like this - Buddha teaches that that which changes changes and that which does not change does not change. Know that which does not change. That is what Buddha taught.


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...or something






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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: eve69]
    #7811520 -

The difference between drug induced high, and liberation, is like that of being on an upper floor and sticking ones head out a small window, or walking out through the front door.


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...or something






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Re: Drugs, Buddhism, and States of Consciousness [Re: eve69]
    #7811582 -

To be enlightened one could not have a negative opinion of drug use, one could only be peacefully detached. So in a way, just as drugs themselves would have to be let go, the stigma behind them would have to as well.

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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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