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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505370 -

Then why do we even have separate forums?

Why not just ONE big forum to discuss everything?


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3505436 -

Cervantes said:
Then why do we even have separate forums?

Why not just ONE big forum to discuss everything?


I believe that would be OTD. In any case, I fail to see how disagreeing with the premise of a thread is in any way the same as flaming, baiting, disrespect, or close-mindedness.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505482 -

Yeah... well you are a Libertarian... you're SUPPOSED to feel that way.

I'm a Democrat... so I'm a walking, talking oxymoron.

It's amazing we can even have conversations with one another without both our heads exploding.

:smile:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3505496 -

The only bearing that my libertarian beliefs have on this is that I am interpreting the S&P rules in the same constructionalist manner in which I interpret the Constitution. I believe the rules mean what they say, and not what the mods and admins here would like them to mean.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Diploid]
    #3505622 -

"What you're not getting here is that disappearing is NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Neither is arguing vehemently or savagely."

and what yoru not getting is that i NEVER SAID IT WAS!

i point out only 2 obvious things that swami has done that violate the official shroomery s & P rules.

1. he has been baiting
2. he has not come with an open mind

everything other than that is simply my own oppinions and greivances, and should be taken as such.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3505773 -

Quote:
1. he has been baiting


How so?

Quote:
2. he has not come with an open mind


Why? Because he disagrees with people?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3505891 -

After sitting back and looking at this situation we can clearly see some good things and some things that need to be worked out.

here something I have to say on getting offended on the internet...its your fault if you get offended on the net.  It is my philisophical belief that every person is responisble for their emotions.  learning to do this (as I am still learning how) is awesome for philisophical and spiritual growth.  swami is an awesoe teacher for this and has opened many doors for myself and countless others.

the good is that I see the community coming together for a common cause, and for that I applaud each and every one of you (for what it's worth anyway :wink: )  What I also see is how well the mods have been taking the criticism, you guys have been awesome.  this really makes me appreciate this community a whole lot more.  its akin to that feeling I got when I came back from the ohio gathering...community.

on the flipside, I have also seen things said that shows clear disrespect for the mods.  even if you don't think our decision was correct, to say some of things I've read concerning this issue is atrocious.  people making claims aobut how another person is feeling, and whether or not the mods take this personal.  you can say what you say in a more respectful way, something that I think needs to be cleared up for the S&P forum.

note...this is only for S&P, not PAL, the pub, or any other forum.  make all the comparisons needed, these are completely different forums.

with swami and the mods...I think both "sides" are correct, and both "sides" are incorrect (though there really aren't any sides :wink: ).

ok..onto the issue. I have something for both myself and the mods, and for swami. I have a few that I want to discuss, and we'll take this on a singular basis starting with this one...

one thing clearly sticks in my mind is when swami told someone they weren't worth debating with.

here's how respect is defined in the dictionary I am holding in front of me.

respect:  esteem for or a sense of the worth of excellence for a person, a personal quality or trait, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or trait.

what swami said shows no respect at all for the poster.  and in fact...does nothing for the discussion. there was no reason for him to tell someone they arent worth debating that would further the discussion.  if he doesn't agree (even if he IS right) then he can politely say "I disagree with you on this subject" but not attack or say something about this person  worth in discussion.  who is he to say something like that to another person?

we have a discussion when we talk about the ideas...we have an argument when we talk about the person. 

furthermore, I have seen points made that he's been here for a long time..etc..etc...then he should realize that his opinion may carry more weight than other's opinions on the board, which is even more reason to show respect.

now onto us..the mods.

first of all I myself have seen swami do what he does which  I feel is a lack of respect for certain members but never really did aanything about it. For the most part I was being hesitant since I was sorta new to the community and being a mod and didn't want to sstep on anyone's toes.  other times swami would make what I like to call his "counter posts" ( I'll get onto that after we deal with the first issue) and I would almost close it but most of the time an awesome discussion would break out.  Even if his way was a little too blunt for me, I would forgo it because most of the time great discussions would follow.  this inconsistency on my part shows how much learning I still have left..;)

another thing is the duration of the ban. this is only my opinion but if we were going to start banning him...I feel that after the first warning there should be a one or two day ban, as opposed to what we have right now.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

Edited by kaiowas (12/15/04 07:40 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: shroomydan]
    #3505897 -

shroomydan said:
my .02$

Swami was being a pain in the ass to a lot of people, and when he was confronted by the S&P mods, he tried to argue his righteousness in the typical slick swami style, this was not the hoped for response. I agree that something needed to be done about swami; he was disturbing the peace and restricting the free flow of ideas on the board, by derailing threads.

Here's an example where I called him on it; note his response too me and continued derailment of the thread away from the 'Sacredness' of mushrooms into his usual debunking of the sacred and mystical.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3473693/an/0/page/4

There is certainly a place for swami's philosophy in the S&P forum, but it was getting out of hand. I fully support the administration's action on this matter.



I have been largely without opinion on the matter, and not that mine matters, especially since I don't venture into S&P... but after reading that thread, I can see where Swami's presence would be kind of annoying.

It's kind of like the way pinky is really annoying in PA&L, and I know I stopped going in there because of him. He thinks he is the only one who is right and he has enough time on his hands to type out huge responses and nit pick the smallest of statements. I would love to make some "activism" threads on environmental and humane issues, since it is part of the forum, but I'm sure pinky would derail me, so I don't bother.

After reading a few threads, I can see that this is kind of what Swami does. I could see people not wanting to post in there because of one individual. And while I am all for freedom of speech, if there are people who don't want to come into the forum because of ONE person, who otherwise would, I understand the decisions of the moderators.

Psily


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
    #3505995 -

For those who feel uncomfortable having their ideas challenged in threads, I'd like to remind you once again that there is an ignore feature. I can often manage to ignore users without having to use the ignore feature, but if you have trouble doing the same, feel free to use that feature. You are not obligated to respond to anyone's posts.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3506542 -

this is not to anyone in particular but

in spite of all my bitching i think that banning swami is pretty pointless, if he does come back hes bound to be exactly the same which he should be because he was a usefull member of the board.

i liked the guy 90% of the time and he definetly put more work into s & P than any of us.

i think any of the people who are 'to afraid to post because there afraid swami will rip them up" should either use the ignore button or grow some thicker skin.

I loved butting heads with him and if he doesnt come back (and he might be pissed off enough not to) well have lose a valuable member.

All im saying is there are a few certain things that annoy me, but thats my problem. I dont think he did anything to warrant being kicked out

and although i think you could say its true he doesnt have the most open mind, i dont really think that should be a "rule" i mean you cant really help it if your close minded and we cant just throw out everyone who doesnt believe anything without rock solid evidence.

Probably we all need a bit more swami in us, although i think he needs a bit less in him

im stoned and rambeling but i do think if we lose swami that will be a godamn shame

and it is fair to expect some direct and obvious links to violations at least from the mods who banned him


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3506938 -

Moonshoe said:
this is not to anyone in particular but

in spite of all my bitching i think that banning swami is pretty pointless, if he does come back hes bound to be exactly the same which he should be because he was a usefull member of the board.

i liked the guy 90% of the time and he definetly put more work into s & P than any of us.

i think any of the people who are 'to afraid to post because there afraid swami will rip them up" should either use the ignore button or grow some thicker skin.

I loved butting heads with him and if he doesnt come back (and he might be pissed off enough not to) well have lose a valuable member.

All im saying is there are a few certain things that annoy me, but thats my problem. I dont think he did anything to warrant being kicked out

and although i think you could say its true he doesnt have the most open mind, i dont really think that should be a "rule" i mean you cant really help it if your close minded and we cant just throw out everyone who doesnt believe anything without rock solid evidence.

Probably we all need a bit more swami in us, although i think he needs a bit less in him

im stoned and rambeling but i do think if we lose swami that will be a godamn shame

and it is fair to expect some direct and obvious links to violations at least from the mods who banned him


Ditto.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3507052 -

if all posts were similar to that we would have come a hell alot closer to coming to a conclusion then where we are at now.

more aggressive views = more resistence


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: spudamore]
    #3507235 -

spudamore said:
if all posts were similar to that we would have come a hell alot closer to coming to a conclusion then where we are at now.

more aggressive views = more resistence


I agree, I imagine the Admin would have reached a verdict by now, if it weren't for all the drama. Drama slows the Admin down, because drama = work.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: kaiowas]
    #3508013 -


what swami said shows no respect at all for the poster. and in fact...does nothing for the discussion. there was no reason for him to tell someone they arent worth debating that would further the discussion. if he doesn't agree (even if he IS right) then he can politely say "I disagree with you on this subject" but not attack or say something about this person worth in discussion. who is he to say something like that to another person?

I think that if the person isn't actually debating, and just hurling ad hominem attacks, then they aren't worth debating with. It's perfectly fair to say so, even though it may be a little blunt.

What I've found totally disgusting is the attitude I've seen from certain members that Swami should just accept the fact that he's banned.

The guy has been banned for what seems to me like a completely fabricated reason. Sure the ban is only 15 days, but 15 days is a hell of a long time for not doing anything wrong. If Swami had actually done something wrong you'd think that the mods would be able to present a little more evidence than one example where Swami was curt with someone who was being far more rude than he was.

The mods haven't even tried to present some sort of argument justifying their lack of evidence.

It seems like this ban is based entirely on the number of complaints, and not their validity.

So I ask the mods this; if I can get enough people to complain about any member for no particular reason, could I get them banned?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3508016 -

I agree, I imagine the Admin would have reached a verdict by now, if it weren't for all the drama. Drama slows the Admin down, because drama = work.

Swami was banned before a verdict was reached?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: daimyo]
    #3508170 -

daimyo said:
DoctorJ said:
He used to refer to me as 'herr doktor' which is very offensive to me because I am sensitive about my German heritage. He was basically implying I was some kind of nazi. Really, that's like calling a black person 'nigger'.


I think you ought to do some research into the MOST BASIC of your proud German heritage...language. Herr Doktor = Mr. Doctor. That is a far cry from a racial slur.


yes I'm quite aware of that. The point is that this is a perfect example of SWAMI using subtext to push personal emotional buttons. Like I said, he is very clever in how he belittles people to make it seem as if he is not violating any rules.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phluck]
    #3508192 -

We're so busy in this thread trying to figure out who is to blame. Is Swami an aggitator, or is everybody just over reacting to him because they are insecure? That is what this is all about. When will we find the answer? Later today? Tommorow, perhaps? Maybe next week?

It's totally pointless to try to convince each other that Swami should be absolved of all crimes, that he is innocent, or that he is an inflammatory presence who needs disciplinary action. The arguement that "He didn't break the rules, you people are just weak" is useless. The argument that "He broke the rules, you people are just his loyalists" is useless. We will never resolve a dispute this way. No argument in history, either large-scale or small, has ever been resolved peacefully when either side has it in mind to forcefully convince the other of their position.

There are two ingredients which must come into play before a conflict of this sort can surround a member at a community where debate and discussion happens: 1) The member must be a somewhat strong-willed, sometimes aggitating presence. 2) Those with whom he interacts must be somewhat over-sensitive, and insecure in their own position. Both of these need to come together before a situation of this sort can arise. If one or both of these ingredients is absent, there is no basis for a conflict of this nature to occur. Since a conflict of this nature is indeed occuring, it is reasonable to conclude that both of these ingredients are present, that Swami is a strong-willed, sometimes aggitating presence, and that those offended by him are experiencing some degree of insecurity.

We have been trying to isolate which single ingredient needs to be removed, to impose upon others what adjustments need to be made. When we impose upon others, we create the potential for further conflict. One the one side, there are those of us who believe Swami is at fault and should be disciplined. On the other side, there are those of us who believe that Swami has done nothing wrong, that the action taken against him has been an injustice perpetrated by weak-willed individuals. We need to let go of both positions.

In trying to solve this situation, the answer is not to argue over which one ingredient needs to be removed. If our action is to remove the first ingredient, as we have attempted by banning Swami, we foster resentment not only from Swami, but from those who enjoy his presence within this community. If we try to remove the second ingredient, by yelling at and critcizing those who have a problem with Swami's presence (as we have been doing), we foster resentment from those we are criticizing. As a result, threads such as this one explode into tennis-match arguments which have no appreciable direction, and essentially amount to a whole lot of needless negativity.

The answer to is remove both ingredients. Everyone must adjust. Swami must be asked to be at least a little bit more flexible for the sake of keeping the peace. If he is a kind person this should not be laborous for him. At the same time, we must take it upon ourselves not to be so reactionary whenever it appears that Swami is belittling us or attacking our point of view. If we have a sincere wish to overcome this situation, and not to exact vengence on someone whom we believe has wronged us, we should have no trouble making this adjustment in ourselves. That is the route to success. Cooperation.

If Swami is secure in his own ideas, he should have the capacity to present them with a more flexible attitude. By the same token, if we are secure in our own ideas, we should have the capacity to remain peaceful when confronted with an argument from someone behaving inflexibly.

Make a difference!


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (12/16/04 10:27 AM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phluck]
    #3508239 -

>> 15 days is a hell of a long time for not doing anything wrong. If Swami had actually done something wrong you'd think that the mods would be able to present a little more evidence than one example where Swami was curt with someone who was being far more rude than he was.

It seems most likely that the reason he was banned has entirely to do with other members requesting that he be banned, presenting their case probably with a lot of embellishment, with the wish to exact vengence and make a cowardly victory for themselves. It's quite possible that the ban against Swami was a mistake, and that our moderators are not in fact cold tyrants imposing a totalitarian regime. It's also possible that the moderators themselves had a personal vendetta against Swami. That would be extremely unfortunate, but yelling at them and accusing them of this is not going to cause them to concede. It will exacerbate the problem.

We need to put down our torches as well as our pitchforks, and turn off the Bandwagon-Banjo cassette.

On one occasion, Swami informed me that I was "not worth debating with", because I insist on using "anecdotes as evidence". Essentially, this was an attack on my discussion style rather than a comment on the point of view I was presenting. On another occasion, I informed Swami that I believed him to be "childish, and a little twisted," because of a post he had made about Christopher Reeves. We were both wrong to say these things. It is an unfortunate situation that either of these minor offenses were perpetrated against each other, but if either Swami or myself are going to coexist, we must have the capacity to let these things slide. Another Shroomerite once extended a hand of friendship to me after I apologized to him for accidently conveying the impression that I thought him to be unintelligent. He said "Catch, and release." It's become a bit of a motto of mine.

Catch, and release.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
    #3508522 -

"On one occasion, Swami informed me that I was "not worth debating with", because I insist on using "anecdotes as evidence"."

that is exactly the main thing that bugs me about swami! pure hypocritical crap like that. Your not worth debating cuz you use anecdotes, and yet rarely if ever have i debated swami without him remembering a recent event that happend at his tennis club and affirms his point, which is the most blatant example of anecdotal evidence...

:thumbdown:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3508627 -

And on another occasion, I informed him that I thought of him as "childish and a little twisted". We were both in the wrong. I make many mistakes in debating with others. I'm glad people don't show the same intolerance toward me as we seem to be showing toward Swami, but I'd be even happier if we could look past the things that bug us about Swami and instead focus on what we ourselves can do to aid the situation. We can make adjustments in ourselves, but we cannot force Swami to make adjustments in himself.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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